Harvey Weinstein and Victim Blaming

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Re: Harvey Weinstein and Victim Blaming

Postby sunglasses » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:08 pm

So I read the thing about George and boy golly am I confused. Please correct me if I read it wrong.

I read it as two guys got drunk, they went back to his apartment. The alleged Vic passes out and wakes up to drunk George grabbing his dick. He makes vague allusions to a possible spiked drink. He says stop, George protests but does eventually stop.

Look, I'm not the first person to have gotten handsy when drunk but I do stop when people say stop. I mean, I don't do that anymore but did when I was younger-because I thought that was just part of the deal. And that was back in the early 00s, I imagine the drunk groping standards were even less in the 80s.

My point being, people weren't made aware as much as a society the concept of enthusiastic consent while drunk. That's been more of a thing recently-which is great- but I think we need to continue to be wary holding incidents from 30-40 years ago to today's standards. Indeed that is what some are saying about Roy Moore, however, I did look up age of consent in the 70s in Alabama and it was 16 and up. 14 was still a no go.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein and Victim Blaming

Postby tinyrick » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:38 pm

sunglasses wrote:So I read the thing about George and boy golly am I confused. Please correct me if I read it wrong.

I read it as two guys got drunk, they went back to his apartment. The alleged Vic passes out and wakes up to drunk George grabbing his dick. He makes vague allusions to a possible spiked drink. He says stop, George protests but does eventually stop.

Look, I'm not the first person to have gotten handsy when drunk but I do stop when people say stop. I mean, I don't do that anymore but did when I was younger-because I thought that was just part of the deal. And that was back in the early 00s, I imagine the drunk groping standards were even less in the 80s.

My point being, people weren't made aware as much as a society the concept of enthusiastic consent while drunk. That's been more of a thing recently-which is great- but I think we need to continue to be wary holding incidents from 30-40 years ago to today's standards. Indeed that is what some are saying about Roy Moore, however, I did look up age of consent in the 70s in Alabama and it was 16 and up. 14 was still a no go.


Kinda what I was thinking. Here's the story from the article reallifegirl posted:

The two men went back to the actor's condo for a drink the same night. "We have the drink and he asks if I would like another," Brunton recalls. "And I said sure. So, I have the second one, and then all of a sudden, I begin feeling very disoriented and dizzy, and I thought I was going to pass out. I said I need to sit down and he said sit over here and he had the giant yellow beanbag chair. So I sat down in that and leaned my head back and I must have passed out."

"The next thing I remember I was coming to and he had my pants down around my ankles and he was groping my crotch and trying to get my underwear off and feeling me up at the same time, trying to get his hands down my underwear," Brunton says. "I came to and said, 'What are you doing?!' I said, 'I don't want to do this.' He goes, 'You need to relax. I am just trying to make you comfortable. Get comfortable.' And I said, 'No. I don't want to do this.' And I pushed him off and he said, 'OK, fine.' And I said I am going to go and he said, 'If you feel you must. You're in no condition to drive.' I said, 'I don't care I want to go.' So I managed to get my pants up and compose myself and I was just shocked. I walked out and went to my car until I felt well enough to drive home, and that was that."


I think it's bad that he groped a guy who was passed out drunk. I also think that what he said after the first "no" was pretty creepy, but he did stop after the second "no," and he let the guy leave.

I've been a little grabby myself, I admit, but when she says "no," I withdraw immediately. I even offer to buy a cab if she's that uncomfortable.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein and Victim Blaming

Postby iMURDAu » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:57 pm

Aquila89 wrote:What about women? No woman was accused so far. Can I be a fan of actresses?


Like ACL pointed out, Mariah Carey.

You want to take risks and stick your neck out and say "I'm a fan of" something, that's on you. Nobody is immune, everyone has a past, I'm just waiting for the machines to do away with us and our stupid behavioral flaws.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein and Victim Blaming

Postby Aquila89 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:13 pm

iMURDAu wrote:You want to take risks and stick your neck out and say "I'm a fan of" something, that's on you. Nobody is immune, everyone has a past, I'm just waiting for the machines to do away with us and our stupid behavioral flaws.


I can't just stop liking stuff that I like just because some people associated with it could, theoretically be sexual predators...
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Re: Harvey Weinstein and Victim Blaming

Postby iMURDAu » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:49 pm

Or Nazis, or drug addicts, or whatever.

Don't say I didn't warn ya!

Jaws, did you like the movie Jaws? Well don't go reading up on Richard Dreyfuss. When the hell will this stop?

The TV news should just show a ticker at the bottom of who has been accused in the past 2 weeks and the status of the investigation/claims.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein and Victim Blaming

Postby Aquila89 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:58 pm

Being a drug addict is not comparable to being a sexual predator or a Nazi.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein and Victim Blaming

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:51 pm

After seeing recently that a show with Jeremy Piven had been canceled, I remembered that Jeremy Piven had been hit with accusations. Then, I'd been like "Wait, why do I feel like I already assumed he had a habit of sexually harasing women? Was it Entourage? It was probably Entourage."
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Re: Harvey Weinstein and Victim Blaming

Postby iMURDAu » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:23 pm

Aquila89 wrote:Being a drug addict is not comparable to being a sexual predator or a Nazi.


Oh that's right I'm not supposed to stigmatize that. You've got your opinion. I'll have mine.

Drug addicts prey on people all the time. None of my high school friends were afaik molested or dealt with anything nearing a small portion of a smaller fraction of the atrocities committed by actual Nazis of Nazi Germany but damn near all of them got turned on to dope. Not from being prescribed painkillers either. Drug addicts turned my friends and people in my wife's family into addicts. They got her sister, mine started using pills before she realized what the fuck she was doing after about a month and stopped.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein and Victim Blaming

Postby Aquila89 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:35 pm

iMURDAu wrote:Drug addicts prey on people all the time.


But not all drug addicts do. Every sexual predator is, by definition, preys on people, but not every drug addict does. What you condemn is not being a drug addict, but being a drug pusher.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein and Victim Blaming

Postby Kate » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:41 am

There's a difference between being civil and bending over backwards to be accommodating in an argument. I genuinely did not see anyone being treated the way you describe, Crimson. If you could please point out how you feel they were with specific examples, either viewtopic.php?f=57&t=10359 or in PM, I would appreciate that. I understand that people focused on one thing that Noodle said, but it was something that anyone should expect to meet some resistance on. People are free to voice their opinions, but others are free to respond to those opinions honestly as long as they remain within the rules.

I'm going to move the posts associated with this discussion into that thread.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein and Victim Blaming

Postby DamianaRaven » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:55 am

Aquila89 wrote:What you condemn is not being a drug addict, but being a drug pusher.


At this point, I should add that not all "drug pushers" are predatory in nature. A lot of them are actually just normal businessfolk dealing in a black market product. Stories about dealers sneaking "free product" into people's food and drinks (or children's candy) to get them hooked are just a bunch of scaremongering hooey. The only real difference between a "drug pusher" and a clerk at the liquor store is social stigma.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein and Victim Blaming

Postby Grimstone » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:01 am

Drugs pretty much sell themselves, it's the addiction to them that causes antisocial behavior.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein and Victim Blaming

Postby reallifegirl » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:16 am

Going back to the George Takei thing: I can understand that yeah, maybe you bring someone back to your apartment and get confused about intent, but it seemed like the way it was described 1) the dude was straight up unconscious when the groping started, and 2) it seemed like he seems to believe he was roofied. Which makes it was less grey-area than just "I thought we were gonna have sex and misread the signals".

Also, this audio of George Takei being interviewed by Howard Stern recently has been getting passed around, where George Takei mentions grabbing people when they're "hesitant" to touch him, or having to "persuade" people to have sex with him. I don't want Uncle George to be guilty of this stuff, and would love to find out it's false, but it doesn't really look great.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein and Victim Blaming

Postby iMURDAu » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:02 pm

Aquila89 wrote:
iMURDAu wrote:Drug addicts prey on people all the time.


But not all drug addicts do. Every sexual predator is, by definition, preys on people, but not every drug addict does. What you condemn is not being a drug addict, but being a drug pusher.


I was trying to be brief. Spoilered due to being off topic.

Spoiler: show
Preying on people doesn't only mean trying to get them to use drugs. The people who are always "stranded" somewhere that just need gas money so they can get home to their kids. The thievery from stores and family members. The behavior that is just plain not normal like the guy who was tweaking the fuck out behind the ice cream shop by us last week. I wasn't worried about him trying to share his goodies with us. He watched the kids getting off the bus. That's a bit unsettling knowing that guy was around, and still could be. Idk how much experience you have with addicts but I grew up around them and watched too many of my former friends take that path. When you'll do anything to get your fix that makes you do some predatory stuff.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein and Victim Blaming

Postby Aquila89 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:48 pm

iMURDAu wrote:The people who are always "stranded" somewhere that just need gas money so they can get home to their kids. The thievery from stores and family members.


I'd imagine that drug addicts who are also rich celebrities don't do things like that.

iMURDAu wrote:Idk how much experience you have with addicts but I grew up around them and watched too many of my former friends take that path. When you'll do anything to get your fix that makes you do some predatory stuff.


None at all. But addicts still have an excuse; drug addiction is an actual, physical dependency that makes them do things they normally wouldn't do. I may not know much about it, but I'm pretty sure that the general consensus is that being a sexual predator is far worse than being a drug addict. I already know that some of my favorites were addicts. Stephen King was an alcoholic and a cocaine addict while he wrote some of his best books. Matthew Perry was addicted to opioids when he was filming Friends. This doesn't bother me. If I found out that they are sexual predators, well that would.
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