Trump pardons Joe Arpaio

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Re: Trump pardons Joe Arpaio

Postby Absentia » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:51 am

Theoretically the court could reverse itself and decide that Article II, Section 2 doesn't actually grant unlimited pardon powers, although it would take some impressive legal gymnastics.

Also worth noting is that even if Trump did successfully pardon himself, that would not prevent or nullify an impeachment.
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Re: Trump pardons Joe Arpaio

Postby Windy » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:09 am

Tesseracts wrote:When I began this thread, I knew very little about what Arpaio actually did. (I rushed through it because I didn't want the discussion to happen exclusively in the Trump thread.) I erroneously referred to him as a cop (he's actually a sheriff, and I still don't know what the fuck the point of this position is) and I knew nothing except he refused to stop racial profiling. But I just read this article, and holy shit, I am fucking terrified. He basically created a concentration camp for "criminals" who were never convicted of any crime. And did so much worse. I can say without exaggeration that he is probably the most evil sadist to hold US public office in this century. And he is never going to prison.


Sorry you can't assume he actually did any of those things because he was never tried and found guilty for anything except contempt of the court and according to TCS you have to be found guilty by a court first before anyone can assume you're guilty of anything or they have to give you 10 million dollaroos.
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Re: Trump pardons Joe Arpaio

Postby Learned Nand » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:44 am

I recognize you are being facetious (though I couldn't venture a guess as to why), but just so we're clear, most of those incidents did enter the judicial process and resulted in significant payments towards the victims, and several others were the subject of investigations by the Department of Justice. In other words, these aren't mere accusations; they've gone through the legal process.
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Re: Trump pardons Joe Arpaio

Postby Crimson847 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:40 pm

Windy wrote:
Tesseracts wrote:When I began this thread, I knew very little about what Arpaio actually did. (I rushed through it because I didn't want the discussion to happen exclusively in the Trump thread.) I erroneously referred to him as a cop (he's actually a sheriff, and I still don't know what the fuck the point of this position is) and I knew nothing except he refused to stop racial profiling. But I just read this article, and holy shit, I am fucking terrified. He basically created a concentration camp for "criminals" who were never convicted of any crime. And did so much worse. I can say without exaggeration that he is probably the most evil sadist to hold US public office in this century. And he is never going to prison.


Sorry you can't assume he actually did any of those things because he was never tried and found guilty for anything except contempt of the court and according to TCS you have to be found guilty by a court first before anyone can assume you're guilty of anything or they have to give you 10 million dollaroos.


I assume you're referring to an exchange over Hillary's emails or...something? Usually I can tell at least roughly who and what your sarcasm is aimed at, but this time I'm honestly not sure.
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Re: Trump pardons Joe Arpaio

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:45 pm

tinyrick wrote:Quick question. Can Congress override a presidential pardon? Can anyone override a presidential pardon? I'm assuming the Supreme Court can override the President pardoning himself.


I would like to think that if it came down to it, someone in Congress would convince Trump that Pence will play Gerald Ford to his Nixon, and for the same reasons: (a) to let the nation finally have some peace instead of the inevitable years-long trial after a years-long investigation and exhausting presidency and (b) Nobody wants to see a former president actually dragged to court, then sat down in a prison cell for the rest of his life. I mean, in your gut, you think you want to see it happen to a president of the other party, but kinda like how presidential candidates shouldn't threaten to lock each other up, it's a bad image to the people to have a former leader in prison because it's the kinda thing you see in countries where their democracy isn't about to last much longer.

Plus, if Trump pardoned himself, the Senate could still (and frankly, I suspect would) remove him, pardon or no pardon. Just because he's declared himself immune from the legal system doesn't mean he can't still be impeached and removed from office. *EDIT* Oh. Absentia already said it.

cmsellers wrote: The issue has never come up because no president, not even Nixon or the two named "Andrew," has been as craven as Trump.


I'm not an expert of history, but I don't think Jackson was ever brought to impeachment. Also, Johnson didn't have to pardon himself because the vote to remove him narrowly failed. Nixon didn't even go a far as an impeachment vote, and Clinton decided instead to make the argument that his impeachment was sheer bullshit and didn't get removed by the Senate. Nobody's ever been successfully impeached and removed before (though Nixon probably would have), and I suspect that's why it's never been tested. Only Nixon was in a position to do so.
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Re: Trump pardons Joe Arpaio

Postby Tesseracts » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:37 pm

Crimson847 wrote:
Windy wrote:
Tesseracts wrote:When I began this thread, I knew very little about what Arpaio actually did. (I rushed through it because I didn't want the discussion to happen exclusively in the Trump thread.) I erroneously referred to him as a cop (he's actually a sheriff, and I still don't know what the fuck the point of this position is) and I knew nothing except he refused to stop racial profiling. But I just read this article, and holy shit, I am fucking terrified. He basically created a concentration camp for "criminals" who were never convicted of any crime. And did so much worse. I can say without exaggeration that he is probably the most evil sadist to hold US public office in this century. And he is never going to prison.


Sorry you can't assume he actually did any of those things because he was never tried and found guilty for anything except contempt of the court and according to TCS you have to be found guilty by a court first before anyone can assume you're guilty of anything or they have to give you 10 million dollaroos.


I assume you're referring to an exchange over Hillary's emails or...something? Usually I can tell at least roughly who and what your sarcasm is aimed at, but this time I'm honestly not sure.

I think it's just general contempt of the legal system, which seems like slightly misplaced anger when we are talking about the reincarnation of Hitler over here. Although I can understand being mad at a legal system that allows you to get away with murder if you give someone a million dollars.
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Re: Trump pardons Joe Arpaio

Postby Ladki96 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:48 pm

Crimson847 wrote:I assume you're referring to an exchange over Hillary's emails or...something? Usually I can tell at least roughly who and what your sarcasm is aimed at, but this time I'm honestly not sure.

I think he is referring to that guy who got 10 million dollars for spending time at Gitmo ^^

Tesseracts wrote:when we are talking about the reincarnation of Hitler over here

Who :?
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Re: Trump pardons Joe Arpaio

Postby sunglasses » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:28 pm

Doodle Dee. Snickers wrote:
I'm not an expert of history, but I don't think Jackson was ever brought to impeachment.


He was acquitted as congress required a 2/3 majority, per Wiki

"The Senate then had fifty-four members representing the twenty-seven states whose legislatures could then elect Senators; of these, thirty-six "guilty" votes were required to remove Johnson from office. On all three occasions, 35 Senators voted "guilty" and 19 "not guilty." As the Constitution requires a two-thirds majority for conviction in impeachment trials, Johnson was acquitted."
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Re: Trump pardons Joe Arpaio

Postby Doodle Dee. Snickers » Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:35 pm

sunglasses wrote:
Doodle Dee. Snickers wrote:
I'm not an expert of history, but I don't think Jackson was ever brought to impeachment.


He was acquitted as congress required a 2/3 majority, per Wiki

"The Senate then had fifty-four members representing the twenty-seven states whose legislatures could then elect Senators; of these, thirty-six "guilty" votes were required to remove Johnson from office. On all three occasions, 35 Senators voted "guilty" and 19 "not guilty." As the Constitution requires a two-thirds majority for conviction in impeachment trials, Johnson was acquitted."


You're confusing Andrew Jackson of genocide fame and Andrew Johnson of "Vastly inferior VP under Lincoln and generally considered worst president ever with the possible exception of Buchanon (Lincoln's predecessor)" fame. Sellers' post mentioned "Both Andrews" never pardoning themselves, which was weird since one of them never met impeachment charges.
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Re: Trump pardons Joe Arpaio

Postby sunglasses » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:17 pm

Oh, whoopsiedoodle.

But on topic, yeah, Arpaio was fucking horrible and I just feel very empty by this pardon.

Tess' link is chock full of links to the articles that detail extensively all the issues. Now, I want to point out that his jails aren't the only ones that routinely leave much to be desired with medical treatment of pregnant inmates that lead to miscarriage or death-Sheriff Clark's jails do that to.

What's even more sad is his treatment of inmates (medically) is often considered the norm in for profit prisons. I know that's a whole other topic but if anyone is wondering "how'd he get away with that" that's one of the reasons. The other reason is that he was well known for going after anyone who opposed him-sending PIs after them, arresting them on charges that were later thrown out, et al.
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Re: Trump pardons Joe Arpaio

Postby Tesseracts » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:24 pm

Ladki96 wrote:
Crimson847 wrote:I assume you're referring to an exchange over Hillary's emails or...something? Usually I can tell at least roughly who and what your sarcasm is aimed at, but this time I'm honestly not sure.

I think he is referring to that guy who got 10 million dollars for spending time at Gitmo ^^

Tesseracts wrote:when we are talking about the reincarnation of Hitler over here

Who :?

Who else could I possibly mean? It's the subject of this entire thread.

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Re: Trump pardons Joe Arpaio

Postby IamNotCreepy » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:36 pm

To be fair, we are also talking about Trump, who is, according to reputable sources, Literally Hitler.
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Re: Trump pardons Joe Arpaio

Postby Absentia » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:48 pm

I had a pleasant thought this morning: he might have avoided jail time, but at least the pardon is drawing lots of national attention to just how much of a piece of scum Arpaio is. And while I suspect the man himself is beyond the ability to feel shame, maybe the fear of having his dirty laundry all over the news will deter the next guy who wants to run his own little medieval fiefdom under the guise of law enforcement.
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Re: Trump pardons Joe Arpaio

Postby Lindvaettr » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:25 pm

Absentia wrote:I had a pleasant thought this morning: he might have avoided jail time, but at least the pardon is drawing lots of national attention to just how much of a piece of scum Arpaio is. And while I suspect the man himself is beyond the ability to feel shame, maybe the fear of having his dirty laundry all over the news will deter the next guy who wants to run his own little medieval fiefdom under the guise of law enforcement.


This kind of thing is really the core of what's kept me somewhat optimistic this year. Most of the time, Trump's actions themselves really do very little. They either fail, or they're essentially meaningless. The responses from the opposition, on the other hand, are fantastic. This goes back to literally day one. His refugee ban hardly did a thing (especially at first) to prevent immigration from those countries, but the loud, angry opposition had the wonderful effect of showing many in the Muslim world, who previously believed Americans hated Muslims, that Americans in general had no problem with them, and even considered dislike of them as un-American.

Same thing with the Paris climate treaty. What was essentially one more meaningless self-congratulatory circlejerk of national leaders all telling each other how much they were going to do for the environment, before going home and doing fuck-all, transformed into many countries and US states/cities not only starting on some of those climate goals, but (at least for now) planning to go above and beyond.

It's amazing what we can get done when we're all united in our overwhelming hatred of a man with a orange skin and hands so tiny he can't hold a comb.
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Re: Trump pardons Joe Arpaio

Postby cmsellers » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:33 pm

To clarify: I know that Andrew Jackson never faced impeachment, but he was craven enough to ignore the Supreme Court in order to genocide the Cherokees. If he had been impeached for that (he wasn't because he was really popular at the time), I don't think he'd have been craven enough to try to pardon himself.
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