Kate wrote:This is all user Kate,just to be clear, not admin Kate. This is long, with many links, and I am hesitant to post it. The only reason I'm okay posting it is because it's all visible in the thread, but I'm going to spoiler it because I don't want to drag out discussion about specific users.
Well I'm sorry Kate but that's exactly what I'm doing. There's no two ways around it. Let's just get it over with it, I don't like this any more than you trust me.
Logan, the exact phrase that people were upset by was this: "The reason vocal leaders of LGB are blasting with a double barrel is because you all fucking know the gay male pedophile problem isn't some baseless aspersion, you selfish twat!"
here, for full context.
A few people were upset by what they saw as the implication that there is specifically a gay male pedophile problem, because this has historically been a stereotype used to harm gay people. This is how I read it as well, that it was a particularly pressing problem for the gay community as opposed to the straight one. That may not be how she intended it.
Historically is not on Noodle Fox. She's responsible for her own words and actions, not those of other people. That's not to say people can't be suspicous about stuff like this but just as I say she should be fairer with other people's motivations, people should be that with hers.
gis got as close as anyone did to calling her a homophobe, but it was in reference to that viewpoint:
And when Gis' essentially said she called transpeople useless freaks. We need to talk about that.
here. And it is a view that, when expressed without any evidence behind it beyond impressions, does indeed come across as homophobic.
True but because something MIGHT be X should we assume it's X and have a go at someone for it? That's part of my criticisms for her.
Noodle walked it back slightly but still left it open that she's concerned that this is particular problem in the gay community, or at least, that was how I read it here:
I mean, what happened in regards to Milo and Takei? They had sex with men when they were 14 and they talked about it like it wasn't that big a deal - hell, they talked about it like it wasn't an adult having sex with an underage boy. I know 3 gay men who said they had sex with men twice the age (I assume, they said they were underage when they had relations). Now I wasn't even cognizant to the culture surrounding them back then and I'm not saying I do now, I just seem to see something that I hope isn't there after all I've heard and read; the article sounds off-putting when the author went out of their way to say, "Stop assuming gay men are pedophiles! Besides, Spacey advanced on a 14 year old, not someone under 13!"
That was here, for reference.
Which I think the most charitable view would be to assume she was speaking about a problem within a community not suggesting everyone in it was a paedophile or that this is the only place it exists.
Tess responded to say that doesn't prove there's a problem with the gay community specifically, and to try and clarify that she wasn't saying that it's okay to harm a 14 year old but there's a relevant distinction in terminology for the term pedophilia.
That's over here.Here and
here, Noodle seemed to misinterpret Tess and Aquila (at least, I'm fairly certain she's misinterpreting Aquila's objection to using American standards universally as a defense for Kevin Spacey's actions, I may be wrong).
Okay, you need to explain your view a bit better, because you
seem to be claiming that Spacey forcing himself on a minor doesn't really matter since he's
technically (the best kind of right!) not a pedophile.
What matters is that he, like other powerful people, hurt many people and got away with it for years because nobody complained.
That includes an underage minor, which - with the way my moral compass works - is just as heinous as him forcing himself on a 12 year old.
Adolescents will
never be physically, mentally and emotionally mature to have relations with an adult and it really blows my mind that people are going, "YO HOL UP, SPACEY DIDN'T GO AFTER A 'KID' KID."
and
I'm done talking about this. I want nothing more to do with hearing others trying to weasel Spacey out of being a sick, fucking degenerate; him being gay has nothing to do with this anymore.
I think it's worth noting that no one had defended Kevin Spacey at all; and while she may have misinterpreted it, people tried to be clear that what he did wasn't okay and when she said they were defended it tried to say again that they were not defending him. At no point did I notice her clarify that she is not trying to say that the gay community seems to have a particular problem with pedophilia.
And at no point did she say, as far as I could see that gay community has a particular problem.
That's my point. I can't ask of her to be fairer with assuming intent on others and not ask the same of them for her.
Her doing her wrongs can't stop me from pointing out what I believe was wrong of others.
Tesseracts and
Marcuse both posted to reiterate that their disagreement with her was over the gay pedophile problem comment, and that it seemed she was conflating the disagreement with that statement and the clarification of the term pedophilia with a defense of his actions. Marcuse I believe said that she was using it to deflect from her previous more problematic statement, which was the thing people had a problem with.
Her next post contained a link to an external G+ post where she called the site at large "faggots" and insisted we were defending pedophilia, while linking to posts that explicitly were not defending Kevin Spacey. I believe she genuinely misunderstood, but the insults were the rule-breaking part.
And that was most certainly fucked up and I'd say that to her face if need be.
My TL;DR is that there were certainly misunderstandings, but while some of the people Noodle misunderstood tried to clarify a few times that they didn't mean what she thought they meant, she did not try to deny the rather prejudiced comment that people objected to in the first place. If it was a misunderstanding, that'd be good to know, but there was no indication that it was.
To me that appears close to assuming ill intent on her part until clarified otherwise which is what I'd adviuse her not to do.
In regards to the alt-right comment, Noodle has indeed made comments, used news sources, had the kekistan flag in her signature, and linked to an external site where she claimed to be sympathetic to the alt-right.
What comments? And are these news sources ones only alt-righters use? Does using them make you associated with the alt-right.
And the alt-right doesn't own the Kekistasn flag. To my knowledge the Kekistani thing was either started or popularised by people who not only aren't alt-righters but actively despise and have had public spats with them.
I have the word 'Kek' below my Avatar thingy. The alt-right don't own it anymore than the Aryan Brotherhood own the shamrock.
I do not agree with people using other users to bolster their assertions in threads (especially users who aren't going to be around to defend themselves) but I don't think the problem is saying she's associated with the alt-right.
I'm saying it's a problem for me.
Let there be no ambivilance about that.
It's a political movement, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of it being inherently a pejorative to the point that using it to describe someone is insulting until they claim it themselves.
So you comfortable with it being used on her?
cmsellers wrote:Logan, I called NoodleFox alt-right because A. she has a Kekistan flag and salutation in her signature
To my knowledge amongst the people behind the flag or getting it popularised were the likes of Jeff Holiday, Bunty King, Sargon of Akkad etc. I can look into it and get more speciffic.
But people I'm fans of.
Am I an alt-righter?
and B. she kept making claims that I've only ever seen in alt-right sources (and sometimes linking to alt-right sources).
So you read alt-right sources? See what I mean. This is a dangerous path to go down. And not a fair one in my opinion.
It's like how if someone had a rainbow flag avatar and cited PinkNews for everything, I'd probably conclude that they were gay.
Okay, but again I don't think the alt-right have sole ownership of the Kekistan stuff. In fact I know of many people who use it to mock the identitarian nature of the alt-right.
I don't think it's "an attack on her character" to say that someone is part of the alt-right. While it's true that the parts of the alt-right which are most active IRL are Nazis, the online alt-right is made up of 4chan-influenced shitposters, and I get the impression NoodleFox is part of that tradition, not the Nazi one.
I think the commonly accepted nature of what it is, is enough to suggest it is.
I really do.
Marcuse wrote:I don't know whether it's really an insult to say that someone who has their location set as "kekistan" and has the "kekistan" flag with "shadilay my dudes" as the signature is in some way associated with the alt right. It seems to have been broadcast for a long time.
Are we going with the assumption that people with a fondness for Kekistan and shadily are close enough to the alt-right to be associated with them then?
However, I can say that personally I am very uncomfortable with the idea of threads started on the premise of "this person said something in another thread" because it's a bit too close to getting at the person and not the argument. I would have been more comfortable with a thread titled to the same effect but relying on the broad strokes more than a specific person. There's definitely ways that thread could have been started without being phrased in that way so as to concern so many people.
I concur, but the cat's out of the bag now aint it.
Now just to clarify I say all this not to justify or cover-up the clearly objectional things Noodle said and did, but there are other issues I need to get straightened out. What does and doesn't fly here. I aint my forum and I got no right or wish to tell people how this place should work.
This is for my own edification.
So how we going with this? Is there more? May as well get it all out of the way now.
Not just yet, I'm still tender from before.