CNN tracks down redditor, reserves right to reveal identity

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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby D-LOGAN » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:16 pm

Cobra-D wrote:
A Combustible Lemon wrote:There's no fucking defence here, CNN's the only one that did wrong. Random citizens have NO responsibility for anything legal they do.


Bullshit everyone is responsible for the shitty things they say and do.


Couldn't agree more. But of course acknowledging that doesn't mean giving carte blanche to any kind of vigilante justice or approve of Draconian methods to enforce one's morality on others, like hunting down adulterers and threatening to release photos of them cheating online unless they mend their wicked ways. The responsibility thing just means unless you have some kind of mental illness or something that would impair your control over yourself or are a child etc. that you are responsible for what you say, if you said it under your own accord.

As far as I can tell Mr. AssholeSolo did nothing that reasonably warrants any more than anyone stumbling across him calling him a fucking asshole ... not that he'd probably mind that given what he calls himself, but he had every right to say what he said regardless of what I make of it and CNN had no right, or shouldn't in my humble, awesome, handsome opinion, to threaten to doxx him to keep him in line.

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WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE INTERNET RACISTS??????
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Not just yet, I'm still tender from before.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby A Combustible Lemon » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:17 pm

aviel wrote:Am I not allowed to out someone because (their) anonymity should be inviolable, or am I allowed to out people because (my) anonymity should be inviolable?



these aren't contradictory statements. I can't hold you responsible for unmasking someone when I don't know you did it.
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WE ARE ALL FLOATING IN THE WINDS OF TIME. BUT YOUR CANDLE WILL FLICKER FOR SOME TIME BEFORE IT GOES OUT -- A LITTLE REWARD FOR A LIFE WELL LIVED. FOR I CAN SEE THE BALANCE AND YOU HAVE LEFT THE WORLD MUCH BETTER THAN YOU FOUND IT, AND IF YOU ASK ME, said Death, NOBODY COULD DO ANY BETTER THAN THAT...
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby iMURDAu » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:18 pm

Aquila89 wrote:
A Combustible Lemon wrote:There's no fucking defence here, CNN's the only one that did wrong. Random citizens have NO responsibility for anything legal they do.


Nonsense. Racist shitposting is wrong, and of course people are responsible for the things they do.


Fucking throw me under the prison for anything I put in the Will Offend thread.

Shoot me into the Sun for everything I said on AOL back in it's early days. Well, that wasn't racist shitposting it was just using hate speech to clear out religious themed chat rooms. Probably "wrong" though. Right? Shiiiiit, you want to hear some of the stuff I said at work today?
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“This is going to become a bad meme,” Todd observed.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby Learned Nand » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:20 pm

A Combustible Lemon wrote:The obvious exception is the state itself holding people responsible via warrant.

Again though, doxxing is generally legal. That exception would not apply in this case.

A Combustible Lemon wrote:
aviel wrote:Am I not allowed to out someone because (their) anonymity should be inviolable, or am I allowed to out people because (my) anonymity should be inviolable?


these aren't contradictory statements. I can't hold you responsible for unmasking someone when I don't know you did it.

So, if I understand your stance here, you are never allowed to out someone for doing something legal, but you are allowed to out someone for outing someone else, even though that is legal? If not, what consequences do you think there should be for doxxing someone? And if none, then what is your issue here?
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
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and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby A Combustible Lemon » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:25 pm

you are never allowed to out someone for doing something legal, if you aren't doing it anonymously, even if it is legal to do so. You are allowed to out someone for doing something legal, if you are doing it anonymously, because and only because I am not allowed to out you doing it.
At one point in the chain, outing someone becomes a legal responsibility (for instance if a manslaughter occurs that needs someone to be prosecuted), at which point if necessary, the whole chain gets outed. If this point never comes, everyone in the chain is allowed to be anonymous, whether or not they are de facto anonymous because of previous actions in the chain because you can't 'in' anyone.
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WE ARE ALL FLOATING IN THE WINDS OF TIME. BUT YOUR CANDLE WILL FLICKER FOR SOME TIME BEFORE IT GOES OUT -- A LITTLE REWARD FOR A LIFE WELL LIVED. FOR I CAN SEE THE BALANCE AND YOU HAVE LEFT THE WORLD MUCH BETTER THAN YOU FOUND IT, AND IF YOU ASK ME, said Death, NOBODY COULD DO ANY BETTER THAN THAT...
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby Absentia » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:33 pm

Aren't the real assholes the people who see the address of somebody they don't like and decide to make that person's life miserable for spite? Doxing shouldn't even be a thing.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby Learned Nand » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:35 pm

Okay, so you can never violate the anonymity of an anonymous doxxer, so long as he does not violate the law when doxxing. And because holding someone responsible for something they do while anonymous is, according to you, a violation of that anonymity, that means that someone can never be responsible for doxxing someone else so long as they do so anonymously.

If that is the case, then why are you so upset with CNN? Is it just because they are threatening to out HanAssholeSolo publicly instead of anonymously? That doesn't seem like it should make a moral difference. But by your logic, if they anonymously leaked HanAssholeSolo's information, then there should be no consequences for them.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby A Combustible Lemon » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:38 pm

Corporations aren't people. There is a balance of power issue here. Han Solo is a single random person with no power. CNN is a public company with tons of public responsibility because they're a news corporation. CNN /cannot/ act anonymously. There is no such thing as a secret news corporation.

Also YES.
/Pol/ literally doxxed the man already to confirm what CNN found and I'm not holding /pol/ responsible for what they're doing because I literally can't. I don't know who /pol/ are. And any way for me to find out that's not them explicitly revealing it to me is immoral.
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Last edited by A Combustible Lemon on Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.


WE ARE ALL FLOATING IN THE WINDS OF TIME. BUT YOUR CANDLE WILL FLICKER FOR SOME TIME BEFORE IT GOES OUT -- A LITTLE REWARD FOR A LIFE WELL LIVED. FOR I CAN SEE THE BALANCE AND YOU HAVE LEFT THE WORLD MUCH BETTER THAN YOU FOUND IT, AND IF YOU ASK ME, said Death, NOBODY COULD DO ANY BETTER THAN THAT...
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby Learned Nand » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:41 pm

A Combustible Lemon wrote:Corporations aren't people.

Okay, so if I understand your stance, doxxing someone is only wrong when corporations do it, but not when individuals do it? So, if the CNN journalist himself anonymously, and independently of his employer, leaked this person's information, you would have no problem with that?
  • 6

Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby A Combustible Lemon » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:42 pm

A) see edit
and
B) s/\/pol\//Hypothetically anonymous KFILE
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WE ARE ALL FLOATING IN THE WINDS OF TIME. BUT YOUR CANDLE WILL FLICKER FOR SOME TIME BEFORE IT GOES OUT -- A LITTLE REWARD FOR A LIFE WELL LIVED. FOR I CAN SEE THE BALANCE AND YOU HAVE LEFT THE WORLD MUCH BETTER THAN YOU FOUND IT, AND IF YOU ASK ME, said Death, NOBODY COULD DO ANY BETTER THAN THAT...
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby Learned Nand » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:49 pm

So if CNN, in its capacity as a news organization, directed this journalist to leak the information on /pol/, that would be fine?
  • 4

Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby A Combustible Lemon » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:54 pm

if it wasn't illegal, yeah. there's no way to later denonymize what he said and use CNN's weight for his words without eliminating plausible deniability.
That's the primary function of anonymity.
It happens all the time with leaks, more famously recently with Comey's memos. But also game, movie and tv show details coming out anonymously on NeoGAF, /vg/ and /tv/.

If CNN comes out and says "IT WAS ME, CNN ALL ALONG HAHAHAHAHAH" someone else can just say "no it was me, CNN is lying"
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WE ARE ALL FLOATING IN THE WINDS OF TIME. BUT YOUR CANDLE WILL FLICKER FOR SOME TIME BEFORE IT GOES OUT -- A LITTLE REWARD FOR A LIFE WELL LIVED. FOR I CAN SEE THE BALANCE AND YOU HAVE LEFT THE WORLD MUCH BETTER THAN YOU FOUND IT, AND IF YOU ASK ME, said Death, NOBODY COULD DO ANY BETTER THAN THAT...
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby SandTea » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:56 pm

Uuuh, hey bud. Just a heads up here. You really should stop digging that hole.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby Learned Nand » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:01 pm

If CNN comes out and says "IT WAS ME, CNN ALL ALONG HAHAHAHAHAH" someone else can just say "no it was me, CNN is lying"

Unless, for example, CNN proved that it had the person's information before it was published on /pol, and also proved that it directed the journalist to publish it on /pol/ shortly before it was. That would make a strong case that it actually was CNN.

Regardless, I don't think your position here is sensible. CNN has the same responsibilities towards the public and towards an individual reddit user whether it's behaving anonymously or not. If it is wrong to publish this user's information nonanomymously, then it's also wrong anonymously. It doesn't make sense to distinguish those two based on the value of anonymity, because if you value anonymity, then you should be opposed to doxxing, not neutral towards it.
  • 8

Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: President Trump makes himself an even BIGGER asshole

Postby A Combustible Lemon » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:10 pm

If there's a hole somewhere I expect the peanut gallery to point it out instead of trying to ride avi's coattails. Unless you mean "if corporations do it it's not ok" is an understandable inference from "corporations literally cannot be anonymous". Avi's multiple clarifications are all different and very wrong inferences from what I said because that's his argument style. Make your own arguments and leave avi's to me.

Unless, for example, CNN proved that it had the person's information before it was published on /pol, and also proved that it directed the journalist to publish it on /pol/ shortly before it was. That would make a strong case that it actually was CNN.


which is literally what happened in the comey case. The memos were published under strong anonymity and comey later unmasked himself plausibly. He also acted legally so he didn't get arrested, but until he unmasked himself, taking the memos for granted was a ridiculous thing to do.

Also I've repeated the point about four times so far. It's not that you shouldn't hold anonymous people who unmask things responsible, it's that you can't. It's completely tied to their online persona, not their actual physical selves. the individual members of pol who did the doxxing have their own responsibility, but unless you dox them yourself, which is a fucked up thing to do, you can't connect them to their pseudonyms.
And no, corporations can't act anonymously. People can act anonymously. So "same responsibilities" isn't a thing.
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WE ARE ALL FLOATING IN THE WINDS OF TIME. BUT YOUR CANDLE WILL FLICKER FOR SOME TIME BEFORE IT GOES OUT -- A LITTLE REWARD FOR A LIFE WELL LIVED. FOR I CAN SEE THE BALANCE AND YOU HAVE LEFT THE WORLD MUCH BETTER THAN YOU FOUND IT, AND IF YOU ASK ME, said Death, NOBODY COULD DO ANY BETTER THAN THAT...
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