Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years ago

What's happening in your world? Discuss it here.
Forum rules
Play nice. We will be watching

Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby Marcuse » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:03 pm

Where is this second accusation "sexual assault"? From what I understand the claim is that Kavanaugh (maybe) exposed himself in this woman's vicinity and she only touched his penis because she was pushing him away. I don't think that really qualifies for sexual assault, personally. Additionally, it's worth noting these complaints come from the 1980s, when whether we like it or not standards were different, especially for drunken university students. It's an impossible standard to expect someone to have acted in a way we find impeccable today thirty years in the past.

BBC wrote:Ms Ramirez alleges the incident occurred when she was a freshman at Yale University alongside him during the 1983-84 academic year.

She says they were both taking part in a drinking game at a dormitory party where people sat in a circle and selected others to drink.

She says at one point a plastic penis was pointed in her direction by one man, and later another exposed himself directly.

"I remember a penis being in front of my face," she said. "I knew that's not what I wanted, even in that state of mind."

Ms Ramirez, 53, said she ended up touching the genitals while attempting to push the man away.
  • 2

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6510
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby Absentia » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:31 pm

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion now, but I just don't rate "taking your dick out at a party" among the most heinous of crimes, and that's all Ramirez is accusing him of. It was inappropriate and cruel, and if he had done it last weekend I'd say it was far beneath the level of acceptable behavior for a federal judge, but for a drunk 18 year old it pretty much tracks.

What he (allegedly) did to Ford is far more serious and should be treated as such, but even so I can't help wondering if it's really more disturbing than, say, voting to deny an abortion to a 13 year old girl because she's an illegal immigrant.
  • 9

User avatar
Absentia
TCS Moderator
TCS Moderator
 
Posts: 1593
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:46 am
Location: Earth
Show rep

Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby Cobra-D » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:01 am

Marcuse wrote:Where is this second accusation "sexual assault"? From what I understand the claim is that Kavanaugh (maybe) exposed himself in this woman's vicinity and she only touched his penis because she was pushing him away. I don't think that really qualifies for sexual assault, personally.[\quote]

Well it depends where in the vicinity he exposed himself, was he doing it in a joking manner to everyone involved or was it more directed towards her in close proximity. I’m assuming it had to be if she had to push him away.


Additionally, it's worth noting these complaints come from the 1980s, when whether we like it or not standards were different


Yeah for sure, everyone knows not trying to sexually assault people is a concept invented in 1990 by Annita Hill.


But I too want to know why you seem so keen to see these to dismiss these things as just “a little untowards” or that you edited my message when you quoted me as “petty theft”(almost didn’t notice) as if the two things are both equal.
  • 1

The truth is like poetry, everyone fucking hates poetry.
User avatar
Cobra-D
TCS Camper
TCS Camper
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:46 pm
Show rep
Title: The Witty Flirt

Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby cmsellers » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:12 am

Stormy Daniels' lawyer Avenatti is promising that a third victim of Kavanaugh will come forward in the next two days. And The Atlantic has an article which mentions that Montgomery County police are investigating another complaint of sexual assault, though I presume this will take longer than the GOP will give the hearing, and for all I know it is the same person Avenatti talked to.

To me, the most interesting revelation is that apparently a friend of Kavanaugh's wrote a memoir where a thinly-disguised version of Kavanaugh is blackout drunk at one of those drunken parties he insists he never attended in high school. This suggests that even if Kavanaugh is not a sexual predator, as it is now seeming more likely that he is, he is very probably a shameless liar.
  • 5

User avatar
cmsellers
TCS Junkie
TCS Junkie
 
Posts: 8385
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:20 pm
Location: Three miles from the bat bridge
Show rep
Title: The Bad Bart of Ruddigore

Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby AboveGL » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:05 pm

Crimson847 wrote:I can respect being unconvinced that this necessarily happened as described, but I'm not on board with calling sexual assault "a little untoward", or even referring to it as just being "a drunk shitheel".


Completely agreed.

Frankly, I'm astounded sexual assault is being trivialized in this manner.
  • 1

[10:11] <@JTAWAAAAAY> guys
[10:11] <@JTAWAAAAAY> I just pooped so hard I got a bloody nose
[10:11] <@JTAWAAAAAY> not joking
[10:11] <@Tesseracts> please dont make a twitter about this


Dear Vagina-Haver,
I would prefer it if you ceased your writing career, and instead focused on suicide.
Sincerely,
Lindvaettr
User avatar
AboveGL
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:37 pm
Show rep
Title: Kimperial Slut

Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby Marcuse » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:21 pm

Could someone please explain to me how Ramirez' complaint amounts to sexual assault? As far as I can tell the person who exposed themselves at this party (whether Kavanaugh or not) didn't actually touch or attempt to touch Ramirez. The only touching appears to have occurred because Ramirez pushed this person away, which I don't think anyone could argue was touching of a sexual nature. Everything I'm reading on what sexual assault is, doesn't support these allegations being included in it. I will clarify that I'm not including Ford's allegations there, because if true they absolutely do constitute sexual assault and I have no problem saying that's a crime which shouldn't have happened. I also agree that it was a shitty thing to do even if I don't think it's an assault.

My thing with editing was to illustrate that the same people that complain that criminals aren't afforded more rights or the ability to act in society are the same people baying for Kavanaugh's blood now. On the basis of allegations alone, which cannot be proven, I find it concerning that people find it sufficient to bar someone from a position which they might be otherwise qualified for. My intention had been to choose something non-controversial to transpose, but I see how that could have come off like I was trying to minimise Ford's complaint.

For the record, I think Ford's complaint is as described, sexual assault. I do not think that Ramirez' one is, and it seems on very shaky ground. I think neither of these allegations have the potential to be proven, and as such I'm sceptical about the motivations of these complaints being made known at this time, especially since the NYT seems to have been pushing for Ramirez' story and other news outlets declined to run it. My concern is that sexual assault and rape survivors have become a political tool to bypass the approval system and I'm very worried about where that goes. When the next nominee comes up, will there be new complaints about this person? What happens when people stop believing these people on principle because the issue has become a political one? When a genuine survivor with evidence is disbelieved by a large chunk of the electorate because they oppose that person politically, it'll be the fault of people seeking to weaponise sexual assault claims to further their political ends. Kavanaugh should be disapproved based on his jurisprudence.
  • 5

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6510
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby AboveGL » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:29 pm

Marcuse, I don't have anything to say to address your points but thanks for clarifying your position (and patiently) and I'm sorry if at any point I misunderstood you, or anyone who's in the same boat as you. I think I lost track of whether we were discussing Ford or Ramirez.

And taking the definition of sexual assault, I think you'd be right that Ramirez' incident wouldn't fall under that if no physical contact was involved. I also don't think the other concerns you've raised are unreasonable ones, even if I don't agree with all of them.
  • 4

Last edited by AboveGL on Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[10:11] <@JTAWAAAAAY> guys
[10:11] <@JTAWAAAAAY> I just pooped so hard I got a bloody nose
[10:11] <@JTAWAAAAAY> not joking
[10:11] <@Tesseracts> please dont make a twitter about this


Dear Vagina-Haver,
I would prefer it if you ceased your writing career, and instead focused on suicide.
Sincerely,
Lindvaettr
User avatar
AboveGL
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:37 pm
Show rep
Title: Kimperial Slut

Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby Kivutar » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:55 pm

Regardless of exactly how bad Kavanaugh's actions were or were not and when, is it really too much to ask that that people in respected public positions don't have a history of waving their genitalia around and foisting themselves on people? That's a really fucking low bar.

Maybe the fact that the Me Too movement is going after so many famous and powerful people is a sign that it's become politicized, or, just maybe, people are realizing that holy shit, people are flapping their dicks around as if that's fucking acceptable and they've just been getting away with it.

"Everybody does/did it!" Then everybody can stop. "It was [decade]! Things were different then!" Well, in [decade] you'd be arrested if you took your dick out on the subway just like now, so stfu. "They were young!" Ohai David Wong. "Why are you blaming them 30 years later?" That's not the point, the point is that apparently we as a society have decided it's OK to sexually harass and assault people, and it needn't affect your life if you can hush it up long enough. Take note, predatory creeps today. Oh wait, rape culture doesn't exist, right?
  • 6

Then the LORD said to me, "Go again, love a woman who is loved by her husband, yet an adulteress, even as the LORD loves the sons of Israel, though they turn to other gods and love raisin cakes."

Hosea 3:1
User avatar
Kivutar
Champion
Champion
 
Posts: 1371
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:52 am
Location: Right behind you
Show rep
Title: Great Librarian

Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby NathanLoiselle » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:39 pm

Now let's be clear. I think that Kavanguah (or whatever) is certainly not innocent. However, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? And who hasn't wiggled their drunken body parts at other drunken people at a drunken party? Sure, it's not something you want to happen in your face. But grow up and face that not everything you want is going to happen. I don't think K should become a whatever but that's for entirely different reasons that have nothing to do with me wiggling my penis in my then girlfriend's face. I swear! I'm innocent! I may or may not have done it! And aren't we all maybe or maybe not innocent until the media proves us guilty?
  • 1

User avatar
NathanLoiselle
TCS Junkie
TCS Junkie
 
Posts: 4072
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:49 am
Location: You'll Never Know!
Show rep

Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby gisambards » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:59 pm

Something I think is potentially concerning about this is, completely aside from the question of whether he did it or not, is that if this is what brings down Kavanaugh's nomination then it is a public endorsement from the Democratic Party of the position that punitive action can be taken against a man without any real evidence of misconduct.
Obviously the allegations should be investigated, as they are alleging - in one case very severe - examples of sexual misconduct. But if after a thorough investigation there is no proof - and it happened long enough ago that it's very likely there will be no proof - I have to say I think it's very uncomfortable to think that a single allegation with no backing, even of something as severe as attempted rape, coupled with a single equally unproveable allegation of frankly very minor misconduct, could be used to permanently paint someone as a sex offender and harm their career prospects.

Of course, this is all partisanship. The Republicans are blocking investigation because he's a Republican. The Democrats are wanting to accuse without investigation because he's a Republican. Further, it has to be said, I think it's absolutely the case that the Democrats have weaponised the allegations - even (especially) if the allegations do turn out to be true, I think the way the Democrats have used them is deeply questionable. I have yet to see a convincing moral argument for why it wasn't brought up as soon they found out about it, rather than at a time where its proximity to the midterms has forced the Republicans into panic mode.
  • 9

User avatar
gisambards
Time Waster
Time Waster
 
Posts: 1975
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:45 pm
Show rep

Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby Aquila89 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:56 pm

Marcuse wrote: My concern is that sexual assault and rape survivors have become a political tool to bypass the approval system and I'm very worried about where that goes. When the next nominee comes up, will there be new complaints about this person? What happens when people stop believing these people on principle because the issue has become a political one?


Didn't that already happen when a bunch of women accused Trump of sexual assault and he was elected anyway?
  • 6

As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
--Carl Jung
User avatar
Aquila89
TCS Junkie
TCS Junkie
 
Posts: 3371
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:45 pm
Location: Hungary
Show rep

Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby iMURDAu » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:37 pm

Can't we just solve this by punting the problem of filling the seat until after the 2020 election?

Sure it's on the bottom part of the thing underneath below the optimal result we'd like but isn't that life summarized?

The Republicans didn't mind to do that before and the Democrats will do whatever the Republicans say so they don't seem confrontational.
  • 0

“This is going to become a bad meme,” Todd observed.
User avatar
iMURDAu
TCS Chomper
TCS Chomper
 
Posts: 6348
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:08 am
Location: Route 11 by Scoopalicious
Show rep
Title: King of Fuh

Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby Kate » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:01 am

I'm not impressed by the second thing mostly because if it takes you 35 years and 6 days of actively talking to your lawyer about how maybe it was him because he was accused of sexual assault by someone else and you knew him at the time this happened, there is a hefty chance you aren't remembering it clearly.

Memory is not an internal recording device with perfect accuracy and every time we access a memory we rewrite it, with varying degrees of accuracy (and that degree could be "completely accurate," I am not saying it can't be accurate). That is part of why we have regulations and procedures surrounding questioning witnesses when a crime has been committed. Certain things make you more susceptible to creating false memories, and talking to someone trying to suss out whether someone specific is or isn't the person who flashed you decades ago is one of those situations. The problem with condemning Kavanaugh for things such as this is that the same standard has in the past been applied and used to literally jail innocent people. Victims and witnessee weren't lying or doing it maliciously but they were gravely mistaken. It is a bad standard. The consequence is that sometimes this means guilty people will get away with things, but that is the balance our justice system is based on. No one is talking about sending Kavanaugh to jail, but that doesn't make the standard itself much more acceptable, especially since we all know this will be weaponized. There are much better reasons to not appoint him to the Supreme Court but here we are.
  • 8

JT's Art Thread - JamesT's awesome stuff.
User avatar
Kate
Gul DuKate
Gul DuKate
 
Posts: 2944
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:08 am
Location: Assembling Future Kate
Show rep
Title: Sheepwoman

Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby cmsellers » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:43 am

Kate, I know you don't like WaPo, but you may like this article by Megan McArdle, which is saying basically the same things you are.

I agree that the second accusation is flimsy. As you note, memory is fallable. It sounds to me like Ramirez had a memory that was maybe Kavanaugh, and in trying to determine if it was, inadvertently reinforced the idea that it was. I have to give her credit for being honest about it though, rather than feigning certainty. Which if Mark Judge's memoires are true, is more than can be said for Kavanaugh himself.

Personally, I am waiting on the promised third accuser Avenatti says he has, on the police report, and on anyone else who may come forward. My rule of thumb has been three or four independent and consistent accusations before I believe someone is a sexual predator. And while I badly want to see Kavanaugh not confirmed for other reasons, I am standing by that here. I am concerned at how determined the GOP seems to be to rush this though, and left messages with the offices of both my GOP senators telling them as much.

The thing that pisses me off is all the people who are asking "why did these women wait so long to come forward?" Assuming her story is true, Ford waited because it was a traumatic experience and she expected to get a lot of hate for coming forward, she waited until his confirmation seemed likely. Ramirez waited because she wasn't sure of her memory and also expected to get a lot of hate. I expect anyone else who comes forward similarly was both traumatized and expected not to be believed, giving them little reason to relive the trauma and suffer death threats from strangers. "Why did she wait?" is not a question that people should be asking in 2018.
  • 7

User avatar
cmsellers
TCS Junkie
TCS Junkie
 
Posts: 8385
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:20 pm
Location: Three miles from the bat bridge
Show rep
Title: The Bad Bart of Ruddigore

Re: Professor says Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her 35 years

Postby Marcuse » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:25 pm

CMSellers wrote:The thing that pisses me off is all the people who are asking "why did these women wait so long to come forward?" Assuming her story is true, Ford waited because it was a traumatic experience and she expected to get a lot of hate for coming forward, she waited until his confirmation seemed likely. Ramirez waited because she wasn't sure of her memory and also expected to get a lot of hate. I expect anyone else who comes forward similarly was both traumatized and expected not to be believed, giving them little reason to relive the trauma and suffer death threats from strangers


I don't know though, I think some enquiry into the timing is warranted. It falls exactly at the time to be politically advantageous to the Democrats, and arguably at the time when the accusers would attract the most hate and backlash as a result of weaponizing the allegations. I'm concerned that Ford and Ramirez would not have gotten such a degree of hate had they not come forward at this time, and I'm concerned that in Ford's case a Democrat senator seems to have been involved, and the New Yorker appears to have pushed for Ramirez' accusation. If they're pushing sexual assault (and etc.) survivors to testify at a time which is most disadvantageous for them personally then I'm really concerned about that.

"Why did she wait?" is not a question that people should be asking in 2018.


I don't get what about it being 2018 means we can't have an open investigation into why these allegations were made. Asking a question isn't the same as saying they were lying.

Aquila89 wrote:Didn't that already happen when a bunch of women accused Trump of sexual assault and he was elected anyway?


Broadly speaking, yes. That's one reason why I'm not keen on seeing it happen more.
  • 0

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6510
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests