Secret Moderator Guidelines?

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Secret Moderator Guidelines?

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:17 am

It's been brought to my attention that there are secret moderator guidelines. This is extremely disturbing; users shouldn't have to guess what moderators can and cannot do. Please publicize these immediately.
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Re: Secret Moderator Guidelines?

Postby Kate » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:27 am

They have nothing to do with users. They are entirely about our own conduct. You do not need to guess what we can and cannot do; that is outlined in the rules subforum. What you do need to take a guess at is what happens if we violate those rules, or are discovered to be abusing our powers, or exactly what checks are in place to ensure that no abuse is happening and that we remain accountable to each other. It is entirely internal to the mod team. I don't see how this is disturbing; in fact, I would find it more disturbing if no policies of accountability were in place.
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Re: Secret Moderator Guidelines?

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:28 am

Kate wrote:What you do need to take a guess at is what happens if we violate those rules, or are discovered to be abusing our powers, or exactly what checks are in place to ensure that no abuse is happening and that we remain accountable to each other.

These need to be made public immediately.
I don't see how this is disturbing; in fact, I would find it more disturbing if no policies of accountability were in place.

As far as I know, no standards of accountability are in place, because if there are standards, they're secret. Please publish them immediately.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Secret Moderator Guidelines?

Postby Kate » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:47 am

If you were happy to operate under the assumption that no standards of accountability were in place, what difference does it make that they exist? If you see an instance that appears to be moderator abuse, you can report it. That has always been the case.

Once more, this does not affect users in any way, except that it helps us ensure that everything that we do is documented, can be backed up, and is done in full knowledge of all mods. You do not need to know our inner workings to know whether your rights are being violated, because the rules and punishments for breaking them are clearly defined. Anything that goes beyond that would be grounds to question our actions and I encourage you to do so.
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Re: Secret Moderator Guidelines?

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:52 am

Kate wrote:If you were happy to operate under the assumption that no standards of accountability were in place, what difference does it make that they exist?

I was not operating under that assumption, as the staff guidelines clarify that moderators are bound by the rules. But if there are secret moderator guidelines, then apparently my understanding of the situation is incomplete.

Once more, this does not affect users in any way, except that it helps us ensure that everything that we do is documented, can be backed up, and is done in full knowledge of all mods. You do not need to know our inner workings to know whether your rights are being violated, because the rules and punishments for breaking them are clearly defined. Anything that goes beyond that would be grounds to question our actions and I encourage you to do so.


The rules are not clearly defined, and I have no way of evaluating whether these guidelines affect me without seeing them. Honestly, the fact that you're even trying to defend this secrecy rather than just apologizing for not having considered publicizing them before and then releasing them is disturbing. Please do not delay any further.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Secret Moderator Guidelines?

Postby Kate » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:00 pm

I have not been speaking for the moderation team, but for myself as a part of that team. If you are upset with my response, you are free to ask for my resignation. I am accountable to all users of this site, and if you are unhappy with me or do not trust me, that is important for Tess to know. But, I do not feel the need to apologize for not publicizing something that has no effect on anyone but the moderation team except to protect people, and that is an entirely internal matter. That is, once again, designed for user protection, as well as accountability for mods (which implicitly includes protection for mods who have followed the proper procedure by documenting their actions). We are bound by the rules of the site.
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Re: Secret Moderator Guidelines?

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:07 pm

Kate wrote:I have not been speaking for the moderation team, but for myself as a part of that team. If you are upset with my response, you are free to ask for my resignation.

It'd require the resignation of the entire moderator team; you aren't the only one keeping these secret.

But, I do not feel the need to apologize for not publicizing something that has no effect on anyone but the moderation team except to protect people, and that is an entirely internal matter.

It isn't your place to issue that judgment.

You've given no reason why you can't publish these rules. Just reasons why you shouldn't have to, which haven't been compelling at all, because I can't evaluate them without seeing the rules.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Secret Moderator Guidelines?

Postby Marcuse » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:10 pm

It'd require the resignation of the entire moderator team; you aren't the only one keeping these secret.


No, this is both a ridiculous and unacceptable thing to be suggesting.

We keep our own guidance for how we like moderators to mod, and that's nothing secret or special or magic, it's just guidance we have for ourselves. It doesn't need to be public because it's relating entirely to how we enforce the rules that are published. If you want to refer to the rules, refer to them, stop conspiracy theorising.
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Re: Secret Moderator Guidelines?

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:11 pm

Marcuse wrote:No, this is both a ridiculous and unacceptable thing to be suggesting.

I absolutely agree, the guidelines should just be published.

We keep our own guidance for how we like moderators to mod, and that's nothing secret or special or magic, it's just guidance we have for ourselves.

Then there's no reason not to publish them.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Secret Moderator Guidelines?

Postby Marcuse » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:18 pm

Then there's no reason not to publish them.


Okay. So here's the thing. You're rudely demanding we publish something we use for ourselves to regulate ourselves. Saying there's no reason to publish them is just witch hunting the mod team, which is insulting and tiresome. There's a reason why government freedom of information requests can be denied based on the fact it would constitute a significant drain on resources to provide such information, and for TCS that threshold would be extremely low. In this case, what you are asking is both beyond that threshold, and constitutes no infringement of any rights or abilities of any user on this board because all such guidelines refer purely to what we expect of ourselves, and have absolutely no relation to restrictions on behaviour for any users who are not currently on staff. As such there is no reason to publish such information.
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Re: Secret Moderator Guidelines?

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:22 pm

Marcuse wrote:Okay. So here's the thing. You're rudely demanding we publish something we use for ourselves to regulate ourselves. Saying there's no reason to publish them is just witch hunting the mod team, which is insulting and tiresome. There's a reason why government freedom of information requests can be denied based on the fact it would constitute a significant drain on resources to provide such information, and for TCS that threshold would be extremely low. In this case, what you are asking is both beyond that threshold, and constitutes no infringement of any rights or abilities of any user on this board because all such guidelines refer purely to what we expect of ourselves, and have absolutely no relation to restrictions on behaviour for any users who are not currently on staff. As such there is no reason to publish such information.


This is all assertion without any argument. You've still yet to provide any reason why the guidelines should not be published. We can be the judge of whether there's a reason to publish such information unless you can provide a reason not to publish it. The burden of proof is on you. Users should not have to be subject to moderation they can't anticipate.
  • 0

Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Secret Moderator Guidelines?

Postby CarrieVS » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:31 pm

But there won't be moderation they can't anticipate, Avi, unless I've badly misunderstood. The internal mod guidelines (if I understand correctly) are kind of an instruction manual for enforcing the published rules according to the published procedure. The rules say what will be done by the mods, the guidelines tell them how they should go about doing it.

The mods are accountable for following the rules (same as any other user) and enforcing those rules according to the published procedures. If you were satisfied with the amount of accountability there is until now, why has that changed? No-one's said that the guidelines can override the published rules: if a mod breaks the rules they will be accountable for that, and if anyone tried to justify a rules breach by mods with internal guidelines that contradict the rule, you'd have a legitimate grievance.
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Re: Secret Moderator Guidelines?

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:34 pm

CarrieVS wrote:But there won't be moderation they can't anticipate, Avi, unless I've badly misunderstood. The internal mod guidelines (if I understand correctly) are kind of an instruction manual for enforcing the published rules according to the published procedure. The rules say what will be done by the mods, the guidelines tell them how they should go about doing it.

I can't really know unless I see them. And if this is the case then there's definitely no reason they shouldn't be published.

No-one's said that the guidelines can override the published rules: if a mod breaks the rules they will be accountable for that, and if anyone tried to justify a rules breach by mods with internal guidelines that contradict the rule, you'd have a legitimate grievance.

I can't know that unless I see the guidelines.

As of yet nobody has even attempted to provide a reason why the guidelines shouldn't be published. They've just tried and failed to provide reason why they shouldn't have to publish them. That's not where the burden of proof is here.
  • 0

Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Secret Moderator Guidelines?

Postby CarrieVS » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:39 pm

You seem to have missed my point. The point is that a list of rules and what the mods can and should do to enforce them has been published. If a mod steps out of line you or I can call them out on that, and they can't use the guidelines as a defense. If the guidelines do contradict the rules, and a mod breaks the rules because the guidelines told them to, they are just as out of line as if they had no guidelines.
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Re: Secret Moderator Guidelines?

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:40 pm

CarrieVS wrote:You seem to have missed my point. The point is that a list of rules and what the mods can and should do to enforce them has been published.

It's apparently not a complete list. We should be able to see the complete list.
  • 0

Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
User avatar
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