SJW thread/cringe/mockery

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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby sunglasses » Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:17 am

I really don't feel he was advocating censorship.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Matthew Notch » Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:26 am

aviel wrote:Huh, I didn't actually read Notch's post as advocating censorship, though to be honest it was hard for me to tell what his point was exactly.


To clarify, I did not offer a hard and firm ;) solution to what I perceive is a real issue, as is my wont. I don't advocate for censorship, although I sometimes feel like I'd rather have that than overwhelming negativity. The catch is that censorship is by necessity a negative force, so it's not a real solution at the end of the day. If I had any point, it was to say out and out that I think finding people to mock on the internet is a cheap way to have fun, and doesn't really benefit any party involved in it. Beyond making that statement, I suppose I didn't really have a point.

SO WHY SAY ANYTHING MATT
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:55 am

Matthew Notch wrote:
SO WHY SAY ANYTHING MATT

Because the tomatoes demand it!!!!
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Marcuse » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:27 am

Notch wrote:If it were up to me all those threads would just go away and we'd stop talking about it in the chat entirely. I don't give a damn about freedom of speech sometimes.


I mean, what does this look like, if not censorship? Of course Notch has every right to express his opinion, but saying it's not advocating some form of censorship as the preferred response to the cringe and SJW threads is a bit inaccurate.

The thing is Matty isn't saying "we should totally do this right naow", he's saying he'd prefer it if it happened. The only method these threads would "go away" is if we:

A) Outright banned them from discussion in our capacity as staff
B) Magically altered the minds of every user in order to make nobody want to use these threads

Neither of these things are an acceptable idea to me. I don't want to put myself in the position where I'm collaborating on policing and banning topics of discussion, and I don't see how we can make people suddenly not want to discuss this kind of issue either. So I think the most practical and sensible reaction is to find a way to make room for this and allow people who wish to discuss it to do so. I feel there are reasonable limitations on the way we do so that we might suggest and impose because I don't personally think it's okay to have threads shitting on random teenagers who post something on a tumblr, because that feels like bullying.

But I do feel it's entirely legitimate to have threads discussing gender politics, social justice movements in society, and public figures who express radical ideologies in public. I don't think any of that needs to descend into the "lol how dumb" stuff we sometimes see, but I think banning the topics because its expression is sometimes unpalatable is a mistake.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby aviel » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:51 am

Marcuse wrote:I mean, what does this look like, if not censorship?

It looks like people not caring to talk about it anymore.

I feel there are reasonable limitations on the way we do so that we might suggest and impose because I don't personally think it's okay to have threads shitting on random teenagers who post something on a tumblr, because that feels like bullying.

But I do feel it's entirely legitimate to have threads discussing gender politics, social justice movements in society, and public figures who express radical ideologies in public.

Notch can clarify, but I think he was talking about the former thing rather than the latter when he was saying he'd prefer not to see those threads anymore.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Marcuse » Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:10 am

In that case, the post wasn't sufficiently clear on what it meant, because it made no distinction between the former and the latter. As such, I drew a conclusion that it was issuing a blanket statement that it'd be better for the site if neither option were accommodated. I recognise that it was an expression of opinion, rather than requesting for implementation, but it still stated that freedom of speech isn't important and these things should not be discussed on this site.

It looks like people not caring to talk about it anymore.


It looks like person not caring to talk about it. I don't remember Notch ever really getting involved in these threads in the first place, so I'm unsure whether we can use the qualifier "any more" in relation to this. One person's opinion is valuable, but if we're going to take each member's opinion into account, I don't know if the majority will be on the side of banning or otherwise removing this stuff from the site.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby aviel » Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:21 am

Marcuse wrote:In that case, the post wasn't sufficiently clear on what it meant

That's certainly the case.

It looks like person not caring to talk about it.

No, for those threads to disappear without censorship, nobody would be able to want to discuss them. I don't understand what you are saying here.

One person's opinion is valuable, but if we're going to take each member's opinion into account, I don't know if the majority will be on the side of banning or otherwise removing this stuff from the site.

Is anyone saying otherwise?
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
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He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Marcuse » Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:39 am

Avi wrote:
It looks like person not caring to talk about it.

No, for those threads to disappear without censorship, nobody would be able to want to discuss them. I don't understand what you are saying here.


Notch's post indicates that if it was up to him, as in, if he were to make a decision about whether or not we might choose to discuss or not discuss social justice, he would choose for nobody to be able to discuss this subject on the forum. He qualifies this by stating that freedom of speech is unimportant to him.

To me this indicates that he would, if the decision were his alone, act to ban or otherwise censor the subject. I indicated that I believed this was an accurate reading of the post, and in particular the part I quoted.

Your response that it could be read as though people wouldn't want to talk about it, is a strange statement to make because I already addressed it as the other potential possible method by which we might see these topics removed from the forum. I also dismissed the possibility of such engineering as infeasible, unless we're prepared to directly police the opinions and psychology of our users, which we cannot and should not.

Possibly misreading, I took your statement to mean that Notch's post is an indication that people do not wish to discuss this any more. However, Notch's opinion is limited in scope to a report of just Notch's opinion. He isn't stating that he hopes everyone will spontaneously decide to stop talking about this stuff, he's saying freedom of speech isn't important, and if it was up to him he'd remove such topics from the forum. Obviously he also states that he recognises this probably isn't going to happen, and isn't calling for it to be implemented, but is merely expressing his feelings on the subject which is perfectly legitimate.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby aviel » Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:01 pm

Marcuse wrote:Notch's post indicates that if it was up to him, as in, if he were to make a decision about whether or not we might choose to discuss or not discuss social justice, he would choose for nobody to be able to discuss this subject on the forum.

I do not see this anywhere in his post. As far as I can tell, he was only saying he wished people didn't want to talk about it, not that he would enforce such censorship; he clarified in a later post he didn't support censorship.

Your response that it could be read as though people wouldn't want to talk about it, is a strange statement to make because I already addressed it as the other potential possible method by which we might see these topics removed from the forum. I also dismissed the possibility of such engineering as infeasible, unless we're prepared to directly police the opinions and psychology of our users, which we cannot and should not.

Just because he wants people not to want to talk about those subjects doesn't indicate that he is supporting making people not want to talk about those subjects.

Possibly misreading, I took your statement to mean that Notch's post is an indication that people do not wish to discuss this any more.

Not sure how you got that; I was saying that he was saying that he wishes people didn't want to discuss it any more.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
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He tested with Turing,
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and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Kate » Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:25 pm

It looks like Notch has already clarified what he means, I don't think it's productive to keep arguing about it.

Although Matthew Notch has an incredible brain full of mystery, intrigue, and seductive speculative reflections on life, let's move on from the enigma of Notch and back to discussing...um.

What are we discussing?

In the past, we have had to mod threads to the point of locking them when they were about serious subjects, and there are many social justice themed threads and posts and discussions that have not descended into chaos. I think that's sufficient enough to demonstrate that we can talk about almost anything without descending into chaos, we just sometimes get off track. It turns out that we're humans and subject to emotions and general silliness that can bring us off topic quite easily.

A subforum won't stop this from being all over the forum unless we say you can literally only talk about social justice in that subforum. Some users are going to care, one way or the other, about social justice, and it would be unreasonable to ask them to not voice that when they find it to be relevant. It is the topic du jour. In time, it'll probably fade away. We similarly can't confine people's sarcasm and jokes at the expense of others to a single forum unless we're ready to censor it elsewhere.

It is unsurprising that a thread dedicated to collecting stories about one subject will inspire more discussion about that subject; without a thread, it would probably be less prominent because instead of one thread with over a hundred pages, there would be smaller threads and some of those topics probably wouldn't have been notable enough for their own threads anyway. Some users really enjoy this thread, though, and it is easy to avoid if you do not like it.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Tesseracts » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:19 pm

Disregard joke.

See meme instead.

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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Crimson847 » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:08 pm

Crimson847 wrote:Who decides which of the proposed solutions gets implemented?


As far as I can tell nobody's answered this question. So far we've had several people discuss the pros and cons of various solutions--extending the "no insults" rule, splitting the SJA thread into a serious version that stays in CAASS and a nonserious version that goes in From The Web, requiring sources in the SJA thread, "nuking" such threads entirely, and so forth.

My question is, who decides which solution(s) get implemented, if any? The membership as a group? The admins? The staff in general? It seems to me that we can't get from talking to doing without an answer to that question.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby aviel » Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:22 pm

Tess. She owns the site. Maybe she'll decide to defer her judgment to a poll or the moderator team, but ultimately it's Tess.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Crimson847 » Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:47 pm

Well, that answers my next question.
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"If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them; but the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby sunglasses » Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:59 pm

Tessocracy.

No, in all seriousness (and I could be wrong but I don't think I am), this thread was started to see what the users thought. This topic is then discussed by the moderation team where further discussion (so much discussion-I am not even joking here) takes place.
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