SJW thread/cringe/mockery

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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Crimson847 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:06 pm

Who decides which of the proposed solutions gets implemented?
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:07 pm

Crimson847 wrote:Who decides which of the proposed solutions gets implemented?

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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Matthew Notch » Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:43 pm

Here's the thing about gun control.

When you get down to it, it's really about freedoms. Which freedom do people, in general, feel is more important? The freedom from fear of maniacs with guns? Or the freedom to own a gun, which coincidentally may offer an extra measure of freedom from fear of maniacs with guns--or any sort of maniac, for that matter? And if you choose one freedom, how far must it impinge on the opposing freedom that others are seeking?

When you get down to it, it's really about value judgments. Do you value your own life, or those of the ones you love, over the life of someone trying to take your property? To cause you or the ones you love harm? Those who wish to kill you, perhaps? Which life is worth more, and how far are you willing to assert that?

Anyway I suppose it's important that people feel like they can talk about whatever on this forum, and that they can have their fun however they like, as long as it's not someone on this forum. It's really about freedoms; it's really about value judgments. Do you want to be free to insult whoever, carrying the risk that that sort of behavior could find its way in between members here? Or do you want freedom to read the forum without a lot of insults period? Do you feel like the people on this forum have greater intrinsic value than the people you may shake your head at on Tumblr? Are they worth more than politicians? Are we just going to say, "That is the price they pay for being famous" and call that good?

Or will we try and be a little better than the rest of the internet?

I don't know. I don't think trying to make guns illegal in America is going to solve all or even most of the problems people suffer at the wrong ends of guns here, and I don't think that outlawing all insulting speech toward anyone is going to make me want to visit this forum more. I am getting pretty tired of hearing about gun violence over and over, and I do feel increasingly frustrated that some people here seem to only be able to have a laugh or feel good about themselves at someone else's expense. Which, by the way, is the big difference between those threads and the Rant Thread: in the Rant Thread you are expressing frustration at things which are legitimately affecting your life directly, or maybe even indirectly in some cases, but certainly not at things which don't even NEED to affect you if you are skilled enough at avoiding those corners of the internet.

I used to be able to do that by coming here. Now I feel like it sort of follows me around, both here and on the IRC. If it were up to me all those threads would just go away and we'd stop talking about it in the chat entirely. I don't give a damn about freedom of speech sometimes. And keep in mind, this is coming from someone who has been accused (justifiably) of intentionally trolling at least two of our members in the past by the administration of this site. So you know, then, that I'm not saying I feel this way to try and come up smelling of roses. All I'm saying is that those topics of conversation are something we could definitely do without and still have a nice time here.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Tesseracts » Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:51 pm

Matthew Notch wrote:Or will we try and be a little better than the rest of the internet?

This pretty clearly betrays your opinion.

I used to be able to do that by coming here. Now I feel like it sort of follows me around, both here and on the IRC. If it were up to me all those threads would just go away and we'd stop talking about it in the chat entirely. I don't give a damn about freedom of speech sometimes. And keep in mind, this is coming from someone who has been accused (justifiably) of intentionally trolling at least two of our members in the past by the administration of this site. So you know, then, that I'm not saying I feel this way to try and come up smelling of roses. All I'm saying is that those topics of conversation are something we could definitely do without and still have a nice time here.

Uh, you're starting to lose me here. Although, the issue of not being able to afford the internet crap is a good point. It's been suggested we create a social justice forum, since it's such a popular topic of discussion. I can't mentally justify a social justice forum, but perhaps there could be a politics subforum of CAASS which would capture those subjects, or something.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Tesseracts » Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:14 am

I thought about this for at least a few seconds, and I have a potential solution. Perhaps the news forum can be split into serious news and less serious news. Stuff some feminist blogger, something a giraffe did, people following Donald Trump with tubas, ect can go in the less serious news forum. This idea has been proposed in the past, but at the time these discussions were less popular.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Marcuse » Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:20 am

Is this not the Social Cellar though? A non-serious forum where we don't really impose much in the way of content rules of ideals beyond it being funny.

I'm not suggesting that all the non-serious threads be removed to the SoCel, but it seems like we have that kind of place already.

But my concern is, where do we draw the line with this. One thing I don't want is to see people using their personal opinion of what is or is not "news" to justify criticising a user or just posting in CAASS that a particular thread doesn't belong in there. I'd like any separation to come with a good hard and fast rule we can use to judge these threads and make clear distinctions that doesn't cause too much in the way of argument about the meta-status of threads.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:31 am

The problem is that we don't currently have a good hard and fast rule about what can go in CAaSS. I think if we did have one, even if that one was designed to permit every thread currently in CAaSS, it would help set users' expectations about what threads could be in there, and then this dispute wouldn't be necessary. It's hard to argue about what is news and what isn't news when we haven't defined news in the first place.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Kate » Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:36 am

Honestly, I think that being able to openly discuss almost anything under the sun without breaking down into chaos does make us a little better than the rest of the internet. There's an open exchange of ideas and thoughts. People grow, and change, and expand their worldviews and become more informed about their opinions and those of other people. That's a pretty beautiful thing. Sure, sometimes things get hurtful. That's not what we're going for, and that's why we try and moderate when that happens and support each other when we need it.

If some people can only find humor in mocking other people, well, that's a shame for them but it's hard to be a comedy-based site and take that element entirely out of things. Humor is a way of coping and connecting. Sometimes, something is absurd or upsetting or frustrating on a level that needs an outlet. And yeah...that includes celebrities doing stupid things, because celebrities have influence. This idea that what anyone who is famous enough to be talked about does isn't going to affect your life is, I think, a false one. In a globalized society, these things do impact us. If they didn't, we wouldn't feel the need to joke about them. Some kid who drunkenly yells at a grocer for not selling him jalapeno bacon mac and cheese and ends up on youtube for it isn't famous for no reason. It's because that experience resonates with people, of having some stupid, entitled, aggressive person coming in and making your day hell and treating you poorly. It hits a nerve. Whether it's fair or not to joke about that kid is debatable, but it's not like people do it to be mean. They do it because what he did was outrageous and joking is one way to deal with that. A way better way to deal with that than sending him death threats or turning that anger into your own aggression.

I agree with Marcuse that separating out what counts and doesn't count as serious news won't be solved by a subforum. It just kind of takes the sorting to another level. Does that actually make it easier to ignore things you don't want to read? It should be self-evident from the thread titles what kind of news something is going to be.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:06 am

Kate wrote:Honestly, I think that being able to openly discuss almost anything under the sun without breaking down into chaos does make us a little better than the rest of the internet.

I think the complaint is that, on these topics, it does devolve into chaos. As has been pointed out, making fun of people for their Tumblr posts isn't really productive discussion, nor is it even friendly discussion. Even if it isn't intended to be mean, it is in effect. That doesn't by itself mean that the threads require moderation, but when the SJA thread generates three moderator interventions in a day, the discussion going on probably isn't healthy.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

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OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
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He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Kate » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:21 am

On which topics? Because we've had to intervene in a handful of threads, including serious news topics like drones and crimes that have been committed. Every now and then, things get heated; I wouldn't describe that as devolving into chaos, however. You and I might have a different definition of chaos, though.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:27 am

I was referring to the SJA thread, which required three moderator interventions in a single day. It lead to the thread being temporarily locked.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Tesseracts » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:29 am

aviel wrote:I was referring to the SJA thread, which required three moderator interventions in a single day. It lead to the thread being temporarily locked.

This could happen in any thread. I'm not sure what your point is, are you seriously interested in getting rid of topics of discussion which are controversial?
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:33 am

Tesseracts wrote:This could happen in any thread.

Has it? I certainly don't see that regularly.
I'm not sure what your point is, are you seriously interested in getting rid of topics of discussion which are controversial?

No, nor did I say anything anywhere that should suggest this. In fact, I've stated many times in this thread that I am not suggesting prohibiting discussion on any topic, so I don't know what would cause you to accuse me of this. These discussions can move more smoothly if you don't assume that things I say with which you don't agree are attempts to silence people.

I was only narrowly rebutting Kate's argument that we can discuss anything without devolving into chaos. On the SJA thread at least, things had at points devolved into chaos.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Tesseracts » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:44 am

aviel wrote:
Tesseracts wrote:This could happen in any thread.

Has it? I certainly don't see that regularly.
I'm not sure what your point is, are you seriously interested in getting rid of topics of discussion which are controversial?

No, nor did I say anything anywhere that should suggest this. In fact, I've stated many times in this thread that I am not suggesting prohibiting discussion on any topic, so I don't know what would cause you to accuse me of this. These discussions can move more smoothly if you don't assume that things I say with which you don't agree are attempts to silence people.

I was only narrowly rebutting Kate's argument that we can discuss anything without devolving into chaos. On the SJA thread at least, things had at points devolved into chaos.

Sorry, I got confused because your comment was a continuation of Notch's point, and he was arguing in favor of censorship.
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Re: SJW thread/cringe/mockery

Postby Learned Nand » Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:59 am

Huh, I didn't actually read Notch's post as advocating censorship, though to be honest it was hard for me to tell what his point was exactly.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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