Why was my post/thread locked/deleted?

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Why was my post/thread locked/deleted?

Postby OrangeEyebrows » Fri May 03, 2013 8:10 pm

We prefer not to lock or delete threads or posts unless it's really necessary, and if we do we'll always try to give an explanation. But if you're left bewildered or bereft for any reason, please let us know here and we'll explain why that decision was taken.
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Re: Why was my post/thread locked/deleted?

Postby Learned Nand » Thu May 16, 2013 10:48 pm

What exactly are the criteria for post locking? Mods seem to do it whenever they feel like it. They lock the thread when there's disagreement, they lock the thread when there isn't, they abort it when it's getting off topic, they abort it when it's stayed on topic for too long. Can we put in place some strict criteria for thread locking so it doesn't happen at a moderator's whim?
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Re: Why was my post/thread locked/deleted?

Postby OrangeEyebrows » Thu May 16, 2013 11:38 pm

Are you asking about the gay marriage thread? I didn't lock it, and I don't want to speak for other mods, but in that case I think we were all in agreement that it had run its course. Those people who didn't agree with gay marriage weren't going to be swayed and neither were those in favour. There was really nothing to be achieved.

As with the discussion about hate speech, I really don't think we can have a black and white policy on this. That would result in interesting threads being locked and toxic threads remaining open. You'll have to trust the mods to make a judgement call. But as always, if you feel strongly that we've made the wrong decision, PM one of us and we'll revisit it.
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Re: Why was my post/thread locked/deleted?

Postby Learned Nand » Fri May 17, 2013 12:38 am

I'm talking about several threads, including the ones you mentioned. Also, I'm not requesting necessarily an absolutist policy on either thread locking or hate speech, but some specific criteria would be nice, even if it leaves moderators some flexibility. As of now, moderator decisions are entirely opaque unless you inquire into each one individually.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Why was my post/thread locked/deleted?

Postby JamesT » Fri May 17, 2013 1:33 am

You can generally assume that a thread will be locked in cases where there's no productive discussion to be had and the thread looks like it will take a turn for the worse. In the case of the Gay Marriage thread the reason given was that the thread had run its course and was going to places that might have gotten "ugly". You are welcome to PM mods for details if the reason given is too vague for your liking.
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Re: Why was my post/thread locked/deleted?

Postby Learned Nand » Fri May 17, 2013 2:00 am

Yeah, I'm objecting to that process specifically, in which moderators make any decision they feel is correct and you have to investigate each decision individually to figure out what went on. Why can't we have some defined standards for moderator action? If moderators make whatever decisions they want without any basis in defined rules, I have no way of knowing whether something I'm saying or doing goes will be objected to by the moderator. I can only find out post-hoc. The problem isn't that threads are being locked unreasonably, it's that they're being locked without warning. It's that moderator action is right now impossible to predict.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Why was my post/thread locked/deleted?

Postby LaChaise » Fri May 17, 2013 2:23 am

Aviel, there's a process regarding a thread's lockdown. A moderator will never choose to lock a thread if most of the other mods aren't agreeing. Now let's get this straight: YES, it comes down to our judgement and it can be seen as arbitrary, just like what has been decided regarding hate speech. We are on a forum between human beings, most of them are even decent ones, talking about everything, "from pop culture to foreign policy to factoids".
All these threads on all kinds of subjects won't evolve in a fixed way, that's why we don't want to define a fixed set of rules. It would be way more restraining that the current system. If you really feel that the decision was bad, then you can always contest, that's why we put this thread here. I'd just prefer that you don't contest everything just for the sake of contesting, because it makes your voice lose its value. Which is too bad, some of your arguments being insightful and clever.

And trust me, just because we don't directly ask you if it's okay to close the debate doesn't mean that we're not discussing this profusely between mods, because that's our job. There's a moment where you'll have to trust us to do it in order for this site to work.
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Re: Why was my post/thread locked/deleted?

Postby Learned Nand » Fri May 17, 2013 3:04 am

I'm sure you're discussing it, that's not my objection. I'm apparently not making myself clear. I don't think you're being unreasonable, I think you're being opaque. We have no insights into the decisions or processes that result in thread closures and so we can't know whether what we're discussing is going to invoke the wrath of a moderator. A simple set of criteria for thread closure, even if it's not written in stone, would be a substantial improvement, because then users could at least understand what kinds of things moderators do and do not want to see in discussions.

This isn't about trust, this isn't an objection to any of your decisions, or even the logic that led to them. I just want to understand the process by which moderators examine and a thread and take action based on it, because until then, moderator action comes entirely by surprise.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Why was my post/thread locked/deleted?

Postby deathknight928 » Fri May 17, 2013 3:24 am

I with Aviel. A rarity I know. I can understand the Gay Marriage thread was starting to get ugly and I'm not protesting the decision. And I know we were pushing things. But there really does need to be a clear line so we know what is over and what is stretching things. From our point of view one person made a complaint and one mod shut things down. I would like to know what rule was violated or reason behind the decision without PMing the mod. The same with ban warnings except send the offender a PM as well so it isn't missed. That said I hope I garnered no ill will and would like yalls blessing to start another less personal debate in the future. Perhaps that one was a little too controversial for a first time but it happened pretty much on accident.
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Re: Why was my post/thread locked/deleted?

Postby LaChaise » Fri May 17, 2013 3:31 am

The process is actually quite simple and, I dare say, logical.

Let's take the gay marriage thread as an example.

After 8 full pages of debate, here's what LaoWei wrote:

I've been following this particular thread for a while, and it's like watching a broken record--it makes a lot of sound and fury but it's not going anywhere. A moderator has already stepped in; do we need Godwin to do the same?


I think most of what we could say is written right here.

The principal criteria we use are:

-Is this going anywhere?
This question could mean that the debate is stuck on some people giving the same arguments over and over again, because not everybody knows to accept that the person in front of them has (radically) different opinions and won't change them, no matter what they can say to them. I could also mean that absolutely everybody is agreeing on the subject, and that it's not useful to have someone bump the thread just to say exactly the same thing as the others.

-Did any moderator already step in?
Well, that's pretty obvious, but our job here is to make sure that the debates actually are debates and not just shit-flinging between some users. It's is also to make sure that our members can have an insightful conversation without having to take some unexpected kicks from the debate. Many users told us that some posts literally made them feel sick.


What you just have to know from this is that
-no matter what you do, some people just have their opinion and don't want to change it, repeating the same thing over and over again won't help the debate (I know you're prone to do it Aviel. I watch. I'm behind you right now. Fear me.)
-If a mod intervenes and tells you that there's something wrong, for the love of all that is good, listen to him. Or don't. But in that case don't be surprised if stronger measures are employed.


I hope I've been clear enough. Debating is good, arguing can be good, arguing just for the sake of arguing, while making other members feel bad isn't just bad, it's wrong. In those cases, you'll have to face consequences, and those can be more than just locking the topic.
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Re: Why was my post/thread locked/deleted?

Postby Learned Nand » Fri May 17, 2013 4:57 am

Okay, those are some nice criteria, though I'd like to specify that I only repeat myself if I've been ignored, not if somebody disagrees with me. For all I know, I made a convincing point and the other person didn't even hear it. I think that's reasonable: we aren't obligated to never say something ever again if a person misses it, right?
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Why was my post/thread locked/deleted?

Postby FaceTheCitizen » Fri May 17, 2013 5:07 am

...
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Re: Why was my post/thread locked/deleted?

Postby deathknight928 » Fri May 17, 2013 5:23 am

Aviel if you wish we can carry this over to an IRC chat room. I would like the opportunity for to address your points and for you to address mine. No need to be coy (:
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Re: Why was my post/thread locked/deleted?

Postby Learned Nand » Fri May 17, 2013 5:35 am

Gash wrote:
aviel wrote:Okay, those are some nice criteria, though I'd like to specify that I only repeat myself if I've been ignored, not if somebody disagrees with me. For all I know, I made a convincing point and the other person didn't even hear it. I think that's reasonable: we aren't obligated to never say something ever again if a person misses it, right?


When Chaise said "repeating the same thing over and over again won't help the debate" he simply meant everyone doing it again and again and again and again.


This doesn't really answer my question.

deathknight: honestly, I'm not being. I really am talking about the general case here.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: Why was my post/thread locked/deleted?

Postby HarpingCarp » Fri May 17, 2013 5:59 am

Give me an hour, I have a few things to deal with first, I'll post my reasons here.
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