The Trolley Problem

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Re: The Trolley Problem

Postby Kate » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:24 pm

1. There is a difference between valid criticism and insulting someone; the former necessarily involves being honest about something negative, but does not necessarily constitute an insult. You do the former on a regular basis, and if someone were to report you for it, we would say the same thing to them that I'm saying to you right now. If I said I was going to become an astrophysicist in 10 years time, you would be perfectly right in pointing out that I'm not good at math, or that I seem to have a new career interest every two weeks so this isn't likely to last. It might not be very nice, but the rule is not that you need to be nice, it's that you can't insult someone. In the context of the discussion, those wouldn't be insults, they're just things that you perceive to be true impediments to my goal.

2. You can point out that somebody is violating a rule without comment on their character ("But suggesting that I'm disagreeing with you because of unwillingness to learn or because of attitude is ad-Hominem, and it isn't okay for a user, much less a moderator"). You chose not to. You know that if you have a problem with a mod's behavior, you can report them or talk to another mod about it. While you are free to publicly state it, that same freedom extends to people who take issue with your behavior.
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Re: The Trolley Problem

Postby Learned Nand » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:32 pm

1) I do not make criticisms of people's character when engaged in an argument about something else. Criticism or a person (rather than his argument), accurate or not, is not relevant to a debate about something else. If we were arguing about something in astronomy, e.g. the fermi paradox and drake equation, and I said that you were not good at math, that would constitute an insult and be a violation of rule #1.

2) Excuse me if I was unclear there, but I was saying that it was not okay because it was against the rules.

I really am sick of being part of fora where I'm insulted, and then I'm told it's my fault. Did I do anything wrong here? If not, then I don't see what the issue is; I haven't criticized anybody's character, nor have I engaged in ad-Hominem. Meanwhile, in the last page, I've been told that I am unwilling to learn, that I am unwilling to consider contradictory opinions, and that I myself regularly criticize people's character. "No you!" is not an acceptable way to respond to an allegation of misconduct.
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Re: The Trolley Problem

Postby Kate » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:43 pm

SandTea wrote:There is not, has never been and never will be an arm long enough to make the necessary 'jerk off' motion needed for this thread...

There. mod that and be done with this.

(god, I really hated dating that philosophy 101 girl huh)

That's just because TCS has the biggest dick there ever was ;)

But this is a good example of how you can criticize people. If you think something's a circlejerk and it's making the thread worse, you are free to say so. Obviously, there is a fine line between criticism and insults (and this is getting close to that line), but criticism is allowed. Though if this thread is driving you crazy, you could consider not reading it anymore XD

Avi, I'm not saying "No you!" I'm pointing out that you are allowed the same degree of freedom, and if you weren't, we would have had to talk to you about it by now. I'm sorry if I'm upsetting you, that is not my intention at all. I'm not trying to allow insults against you, or anyone, but I am trying to explain the distinction between criticism and insults. If I am failing at that, perhaps someone else can verbalize it better, or perhaps you can take it up directly with a mod you trust so that this thread can get back "on track!" Get it, because of the trolley...ah well.

You know I respect you greatly, or if you don't, you should (as in I should do a better job of letting you know that). And I will always advocate for you, and anyone else here, to be treated decently at the very least, and encourage people to go beyond that. In my opinion as a mod, neither of you have broken a rule.
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Re: The Trolley Problem

Postby Learned Nand » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:48 pm

Kate wrote:Avi, I'm not saying "No you!" I'm pointing out that you are allowed the same degree of freedom, and if you weren't, we would have had to talk to you about it by now. I'm sorry if I'm upsetting you, that is not my intention at all. I'm not trying to allow insults against you, or anyone, but I am trying to explain the distinction between criticism and insults.

I understand the distinction between criticism and insults, but criticism when neither relevant nor solicited is necessarily insulting. "You're overweight" when discussing your health is criticism; "you're overweight" when we're discussing Yair Lapid's economic policy is an insult. "You are unwilling to learn or consider alternate opinions" is criticism when you're explaining to me why passed me over for a promotion, but it is an insult when arguing about the application and meaning of science and philosophy.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: The Trolley Problem

Postby Kate » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:55 pm

That was not the application; the application was in explaining why he would post no further. It is the direct reason why he would post no further. He could have just left the thread without saying that he wasn't going to post here anymore, but some schools of thought consider that impolite, as you leave someone waiting for your reply when you have no intention of giving one.

Was it about your approach to this subject? Sure, but your approach to this subject is the reason he's not posting here anymore.

For that matter, you can respond to me here but I will not respond on this thread any further; I think there's nothing more I can really say on this subject and we're getting off track. I don't want to shut you down so please feel free to reply, but after your reply I think this topic should be dropped and either taken up in private or in PM with another mod if you aren't satisfied with leaving things the way they are.
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Re: The Trolley Problem

Postby SandTea » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:01 am

aviel wrote:1)I really am sick of being part of fora where I'm insulted, and then I'm told it's my fault. Did I do anything wrong here? If not, then I don't see what the issue is; I haven't criticized anybody's character, nor have I engaged in ad-Hominem. Meanwhile, in the last page, I've been told that I am unwilling to learn, that I am unwilling to consider contradictory opinions, and that I myself regularly criticize people's character. "No you!" is not an acceptable way to respond to an allegation of misconduct.


This place is so contrarian even spell check says 'contrarian' isn't a word here.

and uh... kate, I think? just want to point out "you don't have to read" isn't... fuck it, *seppuku*
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Re: The Trolley Problem

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:05 am

Kate wrote:That was not the application; the application was in explaining why he would post no further. It is the direct reason why he would post no further. He could have just left the thread without saying that he wasn't going to post here anymore, but some schools of thought consider that impolite, as you leave someone waiting for your reply when you have no intention of giving one.

There is no rule against impoliteness in general; there is a rule against insults specifically.

For that matter, you can respond to me here but I will not respond on this thread any further; I think there's nothing more I can really say on this subject and we're getting off track. I don't want to shut you down so please feel free to reply, but after your reply I think this topic should be dropped and either taken up in private or in PM with another mod if you aren't satisfied with leaving things the way they are.

I'm fine with things as they are so long as I'm not getting blamed for other people insulting me.

SandTea wrote:This place is so contrarian even spell check says 'contrarian' isn't a word here.

It works for me. You must be incorrect.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: The Trolley Problem

Postby SandTea » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:27 am

*pushes a fat guy in front of a trolley*
...yup, worked! Thank me later citizens. There are many other people who need saving... and pushing.
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Re: The Trolley Problem

Postby Tesseracts » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:57 am

"I'm no hero. I just like to hit people on the head." -Nelson Muntz
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Re: The Trolley Problem

Postby SandTea » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:29 am

Tesseracts wrote:"I'm no hero. I just like to hit people on the head." -Nelson Muntz


I thought that was...
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Re: The Trolley Problem

Postby Gendry » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:46 am

Burn Inflict wrote:
The 1920's Chicago Gangsta Cop That Lives in My Head wrote:So youse tell'n me, dis imbecile sees an accidental tragedy and decides to turn the front end of it into a murdah?


I myself read that in a "Michael Caine as Alfred Pennyworth" voice, followed immediately by the phrase "Some men jusht wanna watch da world burn."
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Re: The Trolley Problem

Postby Kate » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:57 am

I mean, that's true, should you do such a thing then it is murder. The question is, would you murder someone to save five people.

Maybe it was for the greater good, but that guy's friends and family don't care. If someone killed someone I love to save other people, I would be horrified and do everything I could to see them punished. If someone let my loved one die because the cost of saving them was killing someone else, I'd be sad that the only thing that could have saved my loved one was some innocent person's death...a death that was not consented to. If someone chose to do so on their own, that's different. They made that choice. I will be grateful to them forever. I will make sure their family is provided for to the best of my abilities. They took care of my loved one, I will take care of their loved ones.

It's a horrible violation of someone's rights, and yet most of us seem to err on the side of doing it. So at when we say "push him" we are willing to go to jail for life or possibly even get the death penalty to save those five people. We're willing to become murderers for them. Or we haven't thought it through and didn't realize we could end up dying too, with a long slow buildup towards our death, or that we could rot in prison forever. Or we're pretty sure we can swing a manslaughter charge. Or we're just a bunch of sociopaths.
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Re: The Trolley Problem

Postby SandTea » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:07 am

Kate wrote: Or we haven't thought it through.


This again? Fine, I'll submit to this philosophical line. His family would be fine in hating me as would the five other peoples families for not saving them. I'd rather have one potential murderer than 5.
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Re: The Trolley Problem

Postby Learned Nand » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:19 am

I think that if you could somehow prove you knew beforehand that killing the person would save five people, then it would not constitute murder, but I'm not confident. And anyway, what SandTea said; there's no moral reason to weight the five people on the train differently than the one person near the tracks, and 5 > 1.
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Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

Click for a Limerick
OrangeEyebrows wrote:There once was a guy, Aviel,
whose arguments no one could quell.
He tested with Turing,
his circuits fried during,
and now we'll have peace for a spell.
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Re: The Trolley Problem

Postby Kate » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:30 am

SandTea wrote:
Kate wrote: Or we haven't thought it through.


This again? Fine, I'll submit to this philosophical line. His family would be fine in hating me as would the five other peoples families for not saving them. I'd rather have one potential murderer than 5.

I'm not saying we haven't thought it through at all, just that we haven't considered that we can go to jail and that it would be considered, at the very least, manslaughter, and could be considered murder. I'm not sure if that changes anyone's opinion, but if they haven't thought of it, it's a factor to consider.

I'm not sure what "this again" means though. I'm not maintaining, like someone earlier, that if you consider this a useless question then you haven't thought about it enough. Because I am not opening that can of worms again.

ETA: And it wouldn't be murder to let an accident occur and refuse to kill someone to stop it. You would bear no responsibility, legally, for that...and you should bear no responsibility for that legally. Otherwise, we'd be held accountable every time we didn't kill someone to save lives. It would mean we could kill undesirables and use their organs because 5>1.
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