Sports section?

Discussion, in general

Re: Sports section?

Postby iMURDAu » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:10 am

Who dat? Who dat? Who dat cryin' like a bunch a babies?


New Orleans Saints fans. Crying (mostly) over a pass interference penalty that didn't get called against the Los Angeles Rams and now the Rams are going to play in the Super Bowl. I have no sympathy for anyone who falls down on the same crooked leg that they propped themselves up with. Metaphorically speaking. I'm not a monster. Is that also metaphorically speaking?

Let's take it back to 2009 when the Saints had a dropped pass called a catch by the replay booth.
A blown call that led to the Saints going to the Super Bowl.
Isn't it ironic. Don't you think?


"The City of New Orleans could care less about our musings and wonderments about this."

And from a 2012 ABC News story about the Saints philosophy on playing defense in that era:


"Kill the body and the head will die."

Short story is that in 2009 when the Saints won the Super Bowl they were the beneficiaries of some highly questionable calls made and not made by both officials on the field and in the booth. That is also the season that "Bountygate" started. The Saints were paying bonuses to players who injured opposing players over a period of three years. Bounties have been a part of NFL lore for a long time but it was/is done among the players and not endorsed by coaches during meetings.

On a much lighter note, it seems everyone has just forgotten the lengths that the Saints went to in order to hurt opponents.
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Re: Sports section?

Postby Anglerphobe » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:56 pm

I got into a discussion today about the ethics of stoppages in fighting sports.

Naturally, in anything that involves highly skilled and athletic people trying to beat each other up, there is a high propensity for injury. With more and more evidence coming to light about the long term effects of sub-concussive impacts and bouts of unconsciousness, there is a greater emphasis on responsible fight stoppages than ever before.

The official rules of most fighting sports place responsibility for this solely on the fight's referee, who will be chosen by the athletic commission responsible for sanctioning the contest. Within this referees are largely autonomous, and can refer to a fight doctor for advice on a fighter's ability to safely continue. As far as the fighters are concerned, officially they are instructed to continue until the ref, and only the ref, tells them to stop. The idea is that the referee is impartial and unaffected by the emotional and mental stress of the fight (unlike the fighters themselves or their cornermen), and can therefore can make the better, more rational decisions. This of course means that in cases where the referee fails to call a fight off responsibly, a lot of damage is likely to be done.
In infamous late stoppages like Ray Mercer vs Tommy Morrison, Anne Sophie Mathis vs Holly Holm, and Asha Roka vs Hannah Kampf (see notes) the victorious fighters continued to attack their opponents until the referees took action, long after the fight should have been over. Mercer even addressed that fact in his post fight interview, all while saying that he believed he himself had acted as he should have. He placed the blame for the late stoppage entirely on the referee.
The idea of fighters taking responsibility for what happens to their opponents themselves is fairly contentious. They will usually be criticised by fans and often other fighters or their teams for maintaining an attack on a defenceless opponent, but can face official penalisation for timidity or insubordination if they refuse to attack when the referee urges them to do so. Stopping the fight on their own terms can be a serious infraction in the eyes of the commission. Some do this, notably Ronaldo Souza in his victory over Chris Weidman at UFC 230 (see notes again). Jacare floored Weidman with a right hand, leaving him limp and stunned on the canvas, and then turned to referee Dan Miragliotta to wait for him to call the fight off. When he didn't, Jacare threw a few punches at his defenceless opponent and started verbally admonishing Miragliotta for not intervening until at last he did. Jacare later issued a statement about it to clarify that he didn't mean to overrule the referee's authority, but he was angry about basically being forced to keep attacking a man he respects and who was already beaten.
The other way fights get stopped is retirement - ie the fighter giving up (tapping out in mma and submission sports, "no mas" in boxing and kickboxing) or "throwing in the towel" or corner retirement, wherein a fighter's corner choose to forfeit the match on their fighter's behalf. In theory, this should not be a substitute to a responsible referee stoppage. Fighters try to tough out beatings or submission holds to the point of risking serious injury, and referees are often described as protecting them from themselves, or even from their team's wishes. Throwing in the towel usually results in technical disqualification in mma, for example, as corners directly intervening is against the rules.

The root of the problem seems to be that is fundamentally quite hard to tell when someone is no longer able to continue in a fight. On one hand, people have died from damage they endured without ever falling from their feet. On the other, just last year Tyson Fury was knocked completely unconscious by Deontay Wilder, only to get back up and arguably dominate the remainder of the fight. Erring on the side of caution and stopping fights at the earliest moment could have long reaching effects on the careers of fighters, who of course consciously accept the risks of what they do by necessity. However, the prevailing direction of medical knowledge is showing us that letting the fight run on is likely to have long reaching effects on their health.
There is some according difficulty in defining the 'contract' of fighters who choose to do this as a career and what degree of damage they willingly accept in doing so. Basically all of fighting is, long-term, bad for you. A thousand jabs might harm you more long term than a single overhand that knocks you out, but only the latter will bring and end to the punishment. Fight doctors are on hand to assess immediate risk, such as traumatic brain damage, retinal injury, blood loss, broken bones, but there is a less tangible issue of the long term effects of the damage which is not immediately significant. That problem, which has seen people like Muhammad Ali and Gary Goodridge diminished horribly by CTE years after ending their careers as fighters, is much harder to avoid without simply saying "no hitting each other".
My own view on that is that sport fighting is already a contract which has some agreed upon limitations to protect the fighters from unnecessary harm and allow them to have longer and more successful lives and careers. Stuff like biting, gouging, stamping on the heads of supine opponents, weapons, and so forth, are prohibited because if they were allowed, very few fighters would ever have a career lasting more than three fights. Everyone would be blind, with massive head injuries and broken facial bones before they could even be considered a prospect by the current standards. This is viewed as an acceptable condition on which to sanction fights. In principle, it is exactly the same as implementing earlier stoppages, or more thorough pre-fight medical checks (particularly regarding dehydration, a major contributor to brain injuries in combat sports). It reasonably limits the damage a fighter will receive, allowing them to continue fighting and living their life without becoming a shambling wreck. Tightening the practice of fight stoppages could be the single most critical area is protecting fighters from long term damage and ill health, as it where there is truly avoidable damage in a context defined by the unavoidable necessity of damage in general.

Notes
These are the stoppages mentioned above.

Ray Mercer vs Tommy Morrison, 18/10/1991. Mercer wins by knockout, round 5
Image

The fight to this point had been going in Morrison's favour, with some minor damage inflicted to Ray Mercer's face in the early rounds. Morrison stayed standing only because the ropes were holding him up, and was likely already unconscious when the last three or four blows landed. He went on to fight another 22 times before retiring due to ill health from AIDS, which eventually killed him in 2013.

Anne Sohpie Mathis vs Holly Holm, 02/12/2011. Mathis wins by knockout, round 6
Image


This came after 5 close, hard fought rounds. Like Morrison, Holm stayed on her feet only because she was tangled up in the ropes. The referee called Mathis off in order to disentangle her, something she wasn't conscious enough to do herself, and then sent Mathis back in to knock the defenceless Holm unconscious. Holm went on to win an immedate rematch by decision in the first of 3 more professional boxing matches, before transitioning to mixed martial arts, where she has fought 16 times to date.

Asha Roka vs Hannah Kampf, 17/02/2017. Roka wins by technical submission (guillotine choke) round 1


For me, this is the most disturbing of the examples I selected. Kampf went for a single leg takedown on Roka, who countered with a guillotine with which she then swept to mount. It isn't obvious exactly at what point Kampf lost consciousness, but it was at least 15 seconds before her trainer jumped into the cage - which would normally disqualify her - to stop the fight himself. A 'good' time for a referee's intervention in a choke like this would be three to five seconds. The referee presumably misinterpreted her weak twitching as signs that she was conscious (note: lying still and twitching randomly is not an effective guillotine defence) and let the fight go on. What makes this so uncomfortable to watch is the fact that we was still letting it go on by the time Kampf's trainer intervened. The choke she was in cuts off blood supply to the brain. It doesn't take long to start doing terrible damage. Kampf has not fought again since this contest.

Finally, this is Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza arguing with Dan Miragliotta about continuing to beat a defeated Chris Weidman in the midst of doing it. The actual stoppage is at the end of the video I'm linking, but you can watch the whole thing if you're into the awful Turkish trance pop soundtrack.

Ronaldo Souza vs Chris Weidman, 04/11/2018. Souza wins by technical knockout, round 3


It was an excellent fight, all in all. It was very competitive and interesting until Weidman finally broke down in the third round, and Jacare finished him. Miragliotta probably let it keep going because Weidman was gripping one of Jacare's legs, hanging on to what be considered a possible takedown attempt, if not for the context. Weidman seems to have terrible luck with these things, as he was allowed to take an horrendous beating at the hands of Luke Rockhold when he lost his world title back in 2015. He is now generally regarded as having a severely deteriorated chin, after several knockout losses.
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Last edited by Anglerphobe on Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Tusser, they tell me, when thou wert alive,
Thou, teaching thrift, thyselfe couldst never thrive.
So, like the whetstone, many men are wont
To sharpen others, when themselves are blunt."

Anyone who has any kind of opinion fucking disgusts me.
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Re: Sports section?

Postby iMURDAu » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:36 am

From what I saw Kampf went out at 4:39 and the hold wasn't relinquished until 4:15.

That's terrifying. I watched an almost snuff video on TCS.

I've said for years that Steve Mazzagatti was going to allow someone to die in a fight. Too many times he'd let a fighter stand there, looking quite asleep, on their feet. I hate letting things go on too long. End the fight when it's over so they can fight again. They're people, not robots that just take time to repair.

Referee training becomes increasingly important as MMA grows. Boxing too. Idk if boxing is getting more popular but nuanced refs are just a good idea in general for the sake of safety. Safety = money. Fighters that can fight more fights make themselves and promoters more money over a longer period of time.

My wife and I tend to say things like "If you didn't want the ref to stop the fight so soon then you shouldn't have closed your eyes and let your head bounce off the floor" and "flash knockout is still a knockout, you took a nap".

I've passed out on the couch for 5 seconds before. It's only slightly disorienting and I can admit to having done it because there's no ego involved. No ego that tells me I'm the best damn couch potato and how I'm completely unstoppable. A fighter's ego isn't going to easily let them admit to having been knocked out, a fan latches onto that sentiment and lately it's everyone crying about TJ getting rekt. I thoroughly enjoy Mr. Dillashaw as a fighter and a personality but his ego won't allow him to admit the truth. He got knocked the fuck out. Right? Right.
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Re: Sports section?

Postby Anglerphobe » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:48 pm

I think it would be a reasonable rule to say that if someone is not actively defending a choke like that, the referee has grounds to stop it whether they're actually out or not. That's what happened to Michael Chiesa against Kevin Lee, and I think it should happen more. The cases of Kampf, Kim Couture (left in a scissor choke for about 10 seconds after falling unconscious), and Olaf Alfonso (RNC locked on for about 15 seconds after initially losing consciousness) all involved the defeated fighter's limp, empty hands lying uselessly at their sides, not even attempting to fight off the choking limbs of their opponents. That should be a wrap, even if it's not clear whether you're still kicking or not.

TJ, similarly, was clinging to a single on an Olympic wrestling champion and making no attempt to defend his head from the punches Cejudo was throwing. Giving punch-drunk guy more time to work on a futile takedown attempt against an elite wrestler while taking damage would just worsen the beating and I think TJ must know it by now, having had time to examine the fight with his team and evaluate what happened. I suspect he is in fact deliberately courting the "just bleed" crowd in order to spin for the immediate rematch he needs to repair his ruined ego and reputation, and to avoid fighting Marlon Moraes off a loss.
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"Tusser, they tell me, when thou wert alive,
Thou, teaching thrift, thyselfe couldst never thrive.
So, like the whetstone, many men are wont
To sharpen others, when themselves are blunt."

Anyone who has any kind of opinion fucking disgusts me.
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Re: Sports section?

Postby iMURDAu » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:12 am

Don't the unified MMA rules include not defending yourself grounds for stopping a fight?

I'll ask Jeeves...

Good.

Grief.

Can we write that one down already? How is that not a rule but there's a section for verbal tapout? If you're being choked and lose consciousness it tends to prevent your speech.
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Re: Sports section?

Postby Anglerphobe » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:22 pm

A former reality tv personality lost a Bellator mma match last weekend, to the delight of myself and everyone I was watching with. I'm usually not much of a tv shouter, but I was excitedly screaming "heel hook! heel hook! he has a heel hook!" over and over through the scramble in which Tennessee's Corey Browning snatched one of the nastiest leg locks in submission grappling on Geordie Shore (the UK version of Jersey Shore) star and general tattooed wanker Aaron Chalmers, to the stunned dismay of an arena full of Geordies, including Chalmers' tv co-stars. At least two people shouted "ya done messed up A-A-Ron!"

To be clear, my enjoyment of this is not just about that show and how terrible it was and continues to be (though it was terrible) and I don't arbitrarily dislike Chalmers merely because he was on it. Becoming a successful pro fighter is hard. It was cathartic to see a guy who got to cut the queue and skip the hard work because he was already famous for a shit tv show he was in get heel hooked by a real fighter. Also the disappointment of his hometown crowd was pretty funny.
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"Tusser, they tell me, when thou wert alive,
Thou, teaching thrift, thyselfe couldst never thrive.
So, like the whetstone, many men are wont
To sharpen others, when themselves are blunt."

Anyone who has any kind of opinion fucking disgusts me.
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