Circadian rhythm sleep disorders

Discussion, in general

What's your natural sleep schedule?

Non-pathological lark (morning person)
1
7%
Non-pathological owl (evening person)
4
29%
Hummingbird (neither one)
0
No votes
Pathologically early to bed (possible advanced sleep phase disorder)
0
No votes
Pathologically late riser (possible delayed sleep phase disorder)
5
36%
Completely irregular hours (possible irregular sleep-wake rhythm)
1
7%
Sleep schedule that shifts around the clock (possible non-24-hour sleep-wake disorder)
2
14%
I've never been able to test my natural sleep schedule
1
7%
 
Total votes : 14

Circadian rhythm sleep disorders

Postby cmsellers » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:13 am

I recently learned about circadian rhythm sleep disorders, and my reaction was "holy fuck, three of these might affect me!" But after reading about them in more detail, two of those clearly don't apply and it seems like I probably have delayed sleep phase disorder. Across three different countries, in three very different situations, it seems that my sleep schedule when I'm not actively trying to maintain a "healthy" one settles around a bedtime of roughly 3 AM and a waking time of roughly 11 AM.

If I wake up much later than that, I feel depressed for the rest of the day. (Though if I went to bed too late the night before I can take a nap in the late afternoon without feeling depressed.) If I wake up much earlier, I feel tired for most of the day with a strong desire to take a nap, and after about a week of early rising a nap becomes a necessity, with me typically feeling tired in the same period.

I also wondered if I might have elements of irregular sleep-wake disorder and non-24-hour disorder. The first because most of my life I've gotten anywhere from an hour-and-a-half to most of my sleep (in middle school and high school) in "naps" in the early afternoon. However I still seem to have a preference for sleeping in the morning (both the wee hours and when it's light out), and when I'm not trying to force myself to get up much earlier than 11, or only doing it for a couple days at a time, I don't need to take naps. I also sleep less when I'm on what seems to be my natural schedule, which suggests I'm getting better sleep. Typically, if I'm on the 3-11 schedule I sleep for 7.5-8 hours, whereas when I'm not on that schedule I sleep for nine hours (even more when I'm sick or severely depressed).

The second because I've realized that my sleep has a tendency to slip later each night when I'm unemployed. However I've realized that the tendency to go to bed later seems to be a result of depression, I still wake up around 11 AM and don't take naps until later, if at all. When I have a job I never have this incremental shift later in bed times (even if I don't need to get up at eleven) and also seem to do well on this schedule.

I'm going to try to see a doctor about this. Based on what I've read about it, if I do have delayed sleep phase disorder, there's nothing I can do to treat it aside from what I've always done: force myself into a strict schedule and take naps when I can. I've noticed that even if I get myself on a semi-reasonable schedule (I typically try for getting up at nine, going to bed around one thirty, and taking a nap when I can), the slightest disruption will throw me back onto the 3-11 schedule, and this seems to be a common issue with people who have DSPD.

However knowing this would at least let me justify keeping this schedule and being on my natural sleep schedule might help with the depression. I might also be able to get accommodations for later hours in future jobs if I'm diagnosed with a legitimate sleep disorder, so it seems worth talking to a specialist about.

I know that a lot of people on TCS have issues with sleeping, so I'm curious: who all here knows your natural sleep schedule, and is it one of these circadian rhythm disorders?
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Re: Circadian rhythm sleep disorders

Postby Kate » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:34 am

My natural sleep schedule is called "parenthood." It is sporadic, with frequent disruptions during the night, and occasional accidental naps during the day. The underlying cause is parasitic in nature, but my doctor reassures me it should resolve itself in maybe 8-18 years.
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Re: Circadian rhythm sleep disorders

Postby Absentia » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:46 am

cmsellers wrote:Across three different countries, in three very different situations, it seems that my sleep schedule when I'm not actively trying to maintain a "healthy" one settles around a bedtime of roughly 3 AM and a waking time of roughly 11 AM.


If that's a disorder, then I guess I have it? Doesn't really bother me. If it was possible to find a decent job with evening hours it wouldn't bother me at all.
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Re: Circadian rhythm sleep disorders

Postby Ladki96 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:18 am

I don't know which option's 12-7/1-8 am, but that's my sleep schedule most of the time ^^ exceptions include game nights and finals week s where it gets all wacky but goes back to normal soon after
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Re: Circadian rhythm sleep disorders

Postby cmsellers » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:25 am

Ladki96 wrote:I don't know which option's 12-7/1-8 am, but that's my sleep schedule most of the time ^^ exceptions include game nights and finals week s where it gets all wacky but goes back to normal soon after

That sounds like a normal, non-pathological night owl. You go to be after midnight but can still get up to be at work at nine.
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Re: Circadian rhythm sleep disorders

Postby JamishT » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:00 am

My natural sleep cycle is somewhere around 5am-2pm. But then again, is that my natural sleep cycle or is it a sign of immaturity and stubbornness?

Whatever, 3am is a great time!
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Re: Circadian rhythm sleep disorders

Postby Tuli » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:06 am

My ideal sleep times have changed a lot from when I was younger. They say teenagers are natural night owls and I was a perfect example of that. Whenever it was possible (like during holidays), my sleep schedule would gradually shift until I was awake until the early hours of the morning (6am) and I'd sleep until lunch. But even on school nights I stayed up until 1am or later habitually.

Nowadays my ideal would be going to sleep around 11-12pm and waking around 7-8am which seems pretty normal I guess. When I go to sleep much later, I feel tired and groggy the next day (even if I manage to sleep the same amount of hours). I'd liken it to a hangover. But despite being required to wake up for work at 5:40am pretty much 4 times a week for the past year, I still haven't managed to get used to going to sleep earlier. I try to go to bed at around 10pm but with varied success. Just don't feel like sleeping that early. Sometimes I end up having to nap to compensate.
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Re: Circadian rhythm sleep disorders

Postby IamNotCreepy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:31 pm

I am definitely a night-owl. If given my choice, I would sleep from 2am-10am.

Currently, I sleep from about 12 or 1am to 7am. On the weekends, it's more like 2am-8 or 9am.

Having a job, a wife, and a child have forced me into this schedule. I do prefer to stay up late, but I can force myself into an earlier schedule since the world doesn't give a shit about night-owls.
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Re: Circadian rhythm sleep disorders

Postby jbobsully11 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:47 pm

Lately, I’ve been going to sleep around 3-4 AM, and waking up at 10ish. When I had a job, I would wake up around 6:30, because all of my jobs have started early.

Ideally, I would like a late-shift job, but there don’t seem to be many of those.
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Re: Circadian rhythm sleep disorders

Postby LaoWai » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:58 pm

I voted for the possible non-24-hour thingy. My sleep schedule's basically totally screwed: today, I felt like I had to drag my ass out of bed at noon, felt like crap for about 4 hours, then totally energized until about 8. I ate dinner about 10:30 and nodded off until about 1 am, woke up, did some laundry, read a book, and here I am at about 5 am thinking, "How the hell am I going to get to sleep in order to wake up for tomorrow?" This is basically every day of my life. An irregular work schedule probably doesn't help much on that note.
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Re: Circadian rhythm sleep disorders

Postby cmsellers » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:15 pm

Non-24-hour sleep disorder is supposed to be very rare in sighted people. In fact, it's more common in blind people than in sighted people, which suggests that it cannot be more common in sighted people than the total incidence of total blindness in the population.

Tess has a friend whose sleep schedule does shift around the clock by about an hour later every day, which sounds like the non-24-hour-sleep schedule. But in your case it sounds like something else is the culprit such as irregular sleep-wake disorder, a sleep disorder that isn't connected to circadian rhythm such as sleep apnea, or your unpredictable work schedule.
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Re: Circadian rhythm sleep disorders

Postby iMURDAu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:31 pm

Two or three nights a week, maybe 4 if I'm not lucky I'm up past midnight because I close twice a week and my wife usually closes at her store on one if not both of my days off. 3 days out of the week I'm up at 5 a.m. to be there when the store opens and when school is in session I have to be up at 6:30 on a day I don't work to make sure the boy is awake and functional. I might get to "sleep in" once a week if I'm lucky. I'm going on about 4 hours right now tank yu burymush. I nap when I can. Might do that soon, idk.

Ariana Huffington, whose name I probably misspelled, yup shit. Arianna Huffington was ridiculed by late night talk show hosts and in some magazine articles because she went around promoting the power of sleep a few years ago. I think she's right that people need more sleep.
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Re: Circadian rhythm sleep disorders

Postby LaoWai » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:41 pm

cmsellers wrote:Non-24-hour sleep disorder is supposed to be be rare in sighted people. In fact, it's more common in blind people than in sighted people, which suggests that it cannot be more common in sighted people than the total incidence of total blindness in the population.

Tess has a friend whose sleep schedule does shift around the clock by about an hour later every day, which sounds like the non-24-hour-sleep schedule. But in your case it sounds like something else is the culprit such as irregular sleep-wake disorder, a sleep disorder that isn't connected to circadian rhythm such as sleep apnea, or your unpredictable work schedule.


Well, live and learn. I just picked that one because I'm definitely not on any sort of 24-hour cycle and didn't research anything before voting. I've been checked for sleep apnea before (way back in university), and apparently I'm clean on that. My hypnogogic states also seem to be more restful than actual sleep. I can start to nod off for five minutes or so, then feel really energized for a day or so.
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Re: Circadian rhythm sleep disorders

Postby Tesseracts » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:41 am

I got diagnosed with delayed sleep phase disorder today. This happened after I took a test which used my saliva to measure my melatonin secretion every hour.

melatonin.jpg
melatonin.jpg (3.17 MiB) Viewed 4474 times


My melatonin crosses the threshold at about 11:30 PM. Most people fall asleep about two hours after this so this would make my natural bedtime 1:30 AM. However, I often stay up until 3 AM so I'm also probably suffering from bad habits like staying up playing video games in addition to having this disorder.

Like Sellers said, I have a friend with non-24 which is so rare in sighted people he has trouble being believed when he speaks about it. Yet he definitely has it. I've seen how much he struggles. He's tried melatonin and light therapy but it doesn't work. He's tried making himself exhausted by staying up all night but still can't make himself fall asleep on time the next day. It sucks.

DSPD also seems to be rare in adults with about 1 in 600 having it, but in adolescents have it much more frequently which may be why teenagers are so sleep deprived. I wrote a fake FAQ on Facebook which I will repost here which explain the disorder. It's partly based on the FAQ on this website.

Q: What is DSPD?
A: Delayed sleep phase disorder is a circadian rhythm disorder which causes you to naturally fall asleep at a different time than what is considered socially normal. I did a test which measured my melatonin secretion every hour and found my body naturally wants to fall asleep at 1:30 AM. This explains a lot since I have struggled to sleep normally my entire life.

Q: Is DSPD a mental illness?
A: No. It's a neurological illness. Many doctors assume it has something to do with anxiety or depression but treating this as a mental illness will not solve the issue. However anxiety and depression are correlated with DSPD because sleep deprivation makes it difficult to be in a normal mood.

Q: How can DSPD be treated?
A: Circadian rhythm can be reset with interventions like melatonin pills and light therapy. This is something I am trying, however, even after successfully resetting their sleep a lot of people with this disorder complain of poor sleep quality so I don't know if this will work long term. It might be that creating a lifestyle that works with my natural sleep schedule is the best course of action. Ultimately there is no true cure for the disorder, and you must adhere to a really strict routine to go to sleep earlier because if you stay up even one night your circadian rhythm resets to what your body thinks is normal. However it is possible to grow out of DSPD in old age.

I'm really glad I finally found out I have this disorder. It makes me feel like a bit less of a lazy idiot.
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Re: Circadian rhythm sleep disorders

Postby cmsellers » Wed May 08, 2019 1:12 pm

So, my diet changes appeared to cure my depression, and one or both of those things meant that my sleep schedule shifted forward until 7 AM, which is 8 AM with fucking DST. I naturally wake up then now and cannot sleep much later, and it's remarkable, because that's right when the light comes up in winter, and two hours after it comes up in summer, yet I cannot shift my schedule forward to match the light. My body knows.

I'm not entirely sure why, in Korea, when I wasn't depressed and was eating a similar diet, I was on a 3-11 AM schedule, but I noticed that when I started taking a medication I was on in Korea, my sleep schedule shifted later again and I needed more sleep. After twice calling the prescriber who issued it without hearing back, I just stopped taking the medication and my sleep schedule shifted back again, so I'm thinking my meds fucked things up.

I'm currently in a program where I need to get up at "7:30." (I refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of DST, but will use Central Daylight Time from hear on out.) This doesn't seem like much of a shift, but I cannot budge my schedule forward. What happened was first a week where I would either wake up pathologically early (3:30 AM one time) and not be able to get to sleep, or would fall asleep later than I normally would, unpredictably.

Now I've stabilized again, but basically what happens is I wake up at 6:30, one sleep cycle early, and can't get back to sleep because I know I'll be woken in the middle of another sleep schedule. I go to bed an hour and a half early, but I don't fall asleep easily. I have energy in the morning, but not as much as I normally would in the evening, and it comes at the cost of having any energy after noon.

I'm pissed about how heavily-geared towards morning people is. I'm barely owlish anymore, and if not for DST, my owlishness would no longer be problematic, because getting up at seven is plenty early enough for most purposes. But because society isn't oriented enough towards morning people, they have to inflict fucking DST on us.
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