Star Wars Battlefront 2 2. And sexist assholes are upset.

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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2 2. And sexist assholes are upse

Postby DanteHoratio » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:11 pm

Kivutar wrote:
DanteHoratio wrote:I guess you could make the case that in real life the average woman would not have the strength to be in special forces, and that only certain women have the strength to do so.


Of course, that also goes for men.

True. Like me, who is too weak to be in special forces. I'm sure that I am weaker then a good number of women. But there is more men strong enough to be in special forces. Most women just lack the physical requirements needed for special forces. Not always true, as there ARE women out there who are strong enough to be in special forces, but most can not.

I'm not defending the Sexist assholes who have a problem with a female main character, I'm just saying.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2 2. And sexist assholes are upse

Postby Kivutar » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:24 pm

Reminds me of the whole debate about women in combat. When it was finally allowed a year or so ago, I saw a lot of odd arguments on the conservosphere. My favourite was in a traditional Catholic magazine, and probably the only one that was intellectually honest.

The writer of that article went through the whole "practical" objection, then admitted that it isn't always true and that there are plenty of counterexamples now, in history, and in the Bible for that matter.

He then went into religious people's favourite argument against female soldiers, which is that since women give birth, that means we give life and therefore it is a philosophical contradiction if women also take life. He proceeded to be sensible enough to point out that that is complete bullshit.

The article ended by admitting that as a conservative Catholic, he really didn't like female soldiers, but he couldn't form a valid argument against them.

Points for honesty?
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2 2. And sexist assholes are upse

Postby Grimstone » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:12 am

Kivutar wrote:Reminds me of the whole debate about women in combat. When it was finally allowed a year or so ago, I saw a lot of odd arguments on the conservosphere. My favourite was in a traditional Catholic magazine, and probably the only one that was intellectually honest.

The writer of that article went through the whole "practical" objection, then admitted that it isn't always true and that there are plenty of counterexamples now, in history, and in the Bible for that matter.

He then went into religious people's favourite argument against female soldiers, which is that since women give birth, that means we give life and therefore it is a philosophical contradiction if women also take life. He proceeded to be sensible enough to point out that that is complete bullshit.

The article ended by admitting that as a conservative Catholic, he really didn't like female soldiers, but he couldn't form a valid argument against them.

Points for honesty?


The two main concerns I always hear about women soldiers are the lowering of military standards to accommodate them and the fear that they will be a distraction to an organization composed mostly of young men.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2 2. And sexist assholes are upse

Postby DanteHoratio » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:17 pm

I don't mind women being in military, but we should not lower our military standards just to accommodate women. On average, men are stronger then women, that's a fact. Not always true, as there are some pretty women who could kick my ass. Like female UFC fighters or female pro wrestlers, or the women that are in the army, or even just a woman that keeps in good shape.

I think people will just have to accept that very few women will be in the military in real life.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2 2. And sexist assholes are upse

Postby IamNotCreepy » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:44 pm

I think part of reluctance to have women fighters is partly biological.

A society's population is limited by the number of females, but men are pretty much expendable because one man can impregnate multiple women. Other men getting killed in battles reduces competition for the females, whereas women getting killed increases competition.

So from a male perspective, it's beneficial to keep women from combat, unless you're the one getting killed.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2 2. And sexist assholes are upse

Postby Deathclaw_Puncher » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:01 pm

Fuck biology, we live in modern times. Why shouldn't modernity take priority over biology or tradition?
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2 2. And sexist assholes are upse

Postby Kivutar » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:44 pm

IamNotCreepy wrote:I think part of reluctance to have women fighters is partly biological.

A society's population is limited by the number of females, but men are pretty much expendable because one man can impregnate multiple women. Other men getting killed in battles reduces competition for the females, whereas women getting killed increases competition.

So from a male perspective, it's beneficial to keep women from combat, unless you're the one getting killed.


That's a very good point. For most of our history, we lived in hunter-gatherer groups of 25 to 50 people, max. That means about half of those are women, and maybe half the women are of childbearing age. You have the future survival of your group depending on 6-12 people, who can only have about 1 baby per year tops, and for hunter-gatherers, the rate is more like 1 baby every 3 or 4 years because of longer breastfeeding times and a physically stressful lifestyle. Basically, if even one or two women get killed, the group can be screwed. That math could contribute to the strong human bias against putting women in danger.

However, we have things like guns now and our species isn't teetering on the edge of survival from a population perspective, so what was logical in history may not be logical now.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2 2. And sexist assholes are upse

Postby Anglerphobe » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:19 pm

In the world of Star Wars, which contains both a) diverse alien species and b) abundant robots, the relatively insignificant differences between the two typical configurations of human seem even less consequential. The old line about comparing an elephant to horse, and then both to a lizard, applies in the context of an advanced universe like that. Physical characteristics on which humans would be chosen for any particular job are probably not those which would be greatly affected by the individual's sex.
I'm just sitting back here wondering how a blaster fight involves so much head-kicking.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2 2. And sexist assholes are upse

Postby tinyrick » Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:43 am

Windy wrote:This is a marketing strategy to convince you that the imaginary legion of basement dwellers who hate women because they're women really exist and you should buy the game to show how virtuous you are and fight the patriarchy.


I don't know if what he's saying is what's going on here, but I think it's true that the entertainment industry has been using manufactured sexism scandals as a means to raise brand awareness. Most recently, Sony was accused of removing comments on Youtube that simply said, "This movie sucks," while leaving the most sexist comments alone so that it looked like everyone hating on Ghostbusters was just a sexist prick. My source on that is redlettermedia.com. They did a thing on Ghostbusters.

As for the general flow of this discussion. I think a woman special forces commander isn't too out of place. Even in real history, during times way more sexist than our own, there were women so badass they ended up leading armies. Boudicea anyone? Joan of Arc? Yeah, they may be outliers, but they still happen. In a future where raw physical strength means less and less, I can imagine there being a lot more of them.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2 2. And sexist assholes are upse

Postby Anglerphobe » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:33 am

Joan of Arc and Boudicca are not particularly good examples, as neither was actually responsible for either fighting or tactical leadership. Boudicca was an ideological leader and reigning monarch, which in ancient Britain conferred military leadership if she had the support of her army-raising underlings. She was more like Donald Trump ordering MOAB strikes than a general orchestrating them.
Joan of Arc was similar, but with divine rather than political authority. Putting aside all the romantic notions about her that have made their way into popular history, she got her job more due to the belief that her wisdom came from God than to any military skill or accomplishments of hers.
Not that there are no proper examples. Tomoe Gozen, a female bushi of the 12th century Genpei War who really did fight and command, and Seh-Dong-Hong-Beh, leader of the Dahomey "Amazons" in war against a rival West African kingdom in the 19th century, are better examples of female soldiery and martial leadership than the more popularly cited Joan and Boud's. They held military responsibility and ranks that they got at least partially through military merit, rather than religious or political fervour.

Edited for coherence
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To sharpen others, when themselves are blunt."

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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2 2. And sexist assholes are upse

Postby IamNotCreepy » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:36 pm

I was just explaining the biological reasons why men would be against women serving in combat.

In the context of Star Wars, like other have said, there's no reason why a woman wouldn't be able to be in Special Forces. Especially since men aren't biologically any better at shooting lasers than women.
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