The Unified Star Wars Thread

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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby DoglovingJim » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:34 am

Grimstone wrote:TBF, Rey had spent her entire life becoming familiar with spaceships and using a melee weapon for self-defense so really Luke is the one who had little to no training/experience compared to her.

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She was pretty much using her light-saber like she fiddled around with that staff thing (not to mention she wasn't solely reliant on light-saber techniques, she also did a bit of grappling and kicked Kylo as well), whereas Luke started off with a rifle instead of any form of melee weapon didn't he? And in terms of close quarters combat he didn't show much experience with the sand-people (probably because he only met them because he took a risk to get R2D2 instead of staying within the confines of his farm) so it was like he had to start from scratch.
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Whereas as a scavenger in the thick of it Rey probably needed to use close quarters combat quite a bit otherwise she'd either get killed or starve to death since she can't sell anything.

And regarding what I felt they implied in TLJ is that there must always be a balance to the force, so technically one could also say that Rey had a double dose of force abilities during TFA. Considering at the time Luke cut himself off from the force whereas the dark side was being used by both Snoke and Kylo Ren (and who knows what happened to the other knights of Ren), killing Han Solo made the dark darker making Rey over-powered.



Continuing this train of thought...
This can be compared with Luke Skywalker who grew in his force ability as his Jedi masters passed away, with him being relatively stronger in connection with the force when first Ben died (enabling him to make the impossible shot) and then when Yoda died he was able to beat Darth Vader (naturally Luke would only grow stronger afterwards but that was because he didn't tap into the force fully and also because Darth Vader wasn't fully dark, but instead had more of a struggle between the light and darkness of the force so Luke himself didn't become overpowered with the light side of the force). Then Darth Vader and the Emperor died and Luke became legendarily stronger, being able to tap into his emotions and anger but not fall into the dark side of the force, he became the balance.

But as he begun focusing solely on the old Jedi texts to increase his connection to the force, the balance between light and dark was once again shaken and therefore Snoke and Kylo Ren were needed. And when Luke cut himself off from the force completely in the vacuum Rey was needed.
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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby Marcuse » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:43 pm

I'm sort of okay with Rey being able to fly the Falcon well. Based on her knowledge of the ship and how Unkar Plutt modified it which is delivered in TFA it's reasonable to infer from the movie that she had prior experience with the ship, and knew enough about the decision to install a particular part to know it was a bad idea. Adding that to the known piloting ability latent Force users seem to have means I don't find her ability to fly the Falcon well (and being surprised at it, again in the movie) that bothersome.

Re lightsaber fighting. Ask yourself a question: why does nobody ever complain about Finn wielding a lightsaber? Yes I know if you look hard enough in the bowels of the internet you can find someone who does, but generally it's uncontroversial in popular opinion. Why?

One reason why said internet types might object is that lightsabers have been said to be so dangerous to the user that only someone trained to use the Force can adequately fight with one because without the predictive ability of Force awareness they're about as likely to cut off their own arm as they are the enemy. But let's forget that for now and focus on the difference between Rey and Finn in TFA.

Finn is a bumbling fool who's given a lightsaber to give to someone else. He uses the weapon in an extreme moment because he has literally nothing else to hand and gets his ass handed to him by FN-2189. He then ignites it again when he's standing up for Rey, and it's important for his character that he's gone from someone who wants to run away and not fight the First Order to someone who'll stand and risk death for his friend. Let's ignore the backtracking in TLJ (suddenly coward, suddenly CQC skillz). In this second fight he is left near death from a grievous wound. In both fights he's untrained and incapable and loses badly, his heroism is still standing his ground even though he knows this will happen the second time.

Rey, by contrast, holds the lightsaber twice. The first time is in Maz's place where she has spoopy visions and immediately runs away abandoning it. The second is the faux hero moment where she grabs the lightsaber and uses it to beat Kylo Ren and seriously injure him. She has literally never held a saber by this point, and has zero experience with a weapon she didn't even think was real until that day (she thinks Luke is a myth remember, though she also knows a shitton about Jedi history to argue with Luke in TLJ???). It is true that she has close combat experience, and demonstrates this in TFA. However, in pre-existing lore a lightsaber is the most exotic of exotic weapons, requiring years of specialist training to use to its full potential (remember Luke was never a fabulous duellist) and generally considered a weapon of Force users, of which she has little to no training either. There's an argument that she ripped some knowledge from Kylo's mind when she bested him during his failed interrogation, but that's really a fan theory which doesn't have support from the content of the movie.

So Rey being proficient with the lightsaber the second she holds it is unbelievable because she has zero training, and there's no evidence that combat skill with other weapons is in any way transferable. Finn gets away with it because he loses every time and badly. He's delivered as being nothing more than a plucky amateur and it works because of that, but Rey is just insta good for no reason and it feels unlike the rest of the source material.
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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby gisambards » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:31 pm

I think a problem with the new trilogy is actually highlighted in this debate: the canonical explanation for why Rey can fly the Falcon so well and beat Kylo is almost certainly just "the Force". Because the Force is definitively just a plot device for whatever the filmmakers want to happen next to happen. It doesn't have clear rules or anything.

To be clear, I think it should have rules, just as any fictional form of magic should - it's extremely cheap and lazy to give your characters powers that can get them out of any situation however you want. But frankly, post TLJ, even that simplistic a level of cohesive world-building is more than I'd expect from the makers of Star Wars right now.
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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby Grimstone » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:06 am

How I would rank jedi protagonists in order of training/experience: adult Anakin, Rey, Luke, young Anakin
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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby A Combustible Lemon » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:13 am

See I don't know why Luke comes into these discussions so much when he didn't fight a single person with a lightsaber in the first film, used it as a utility for 90% of the second, and got his damn hand cut off in the last 10% because he obviously wasn't very good at it.

Why do people insist on comparing Luke after he decides to call himself a Jedi and was trained by Yoda and Ben and trained himself to Rey before she even wants to be one?

And yeah, I mentioned how videogamey the force is now, with Luke using his 60 levels in jedi to use force project, and rey arbitrarily learning the mind trick because of the XP she got in the forest despite not even believing in the force or meditating or being clear minded or fucking anything. This especially conflicts with them trying to avoid the prequels' midichlorian stuff by making the force a religion again. Except what kind of shaolin bullshit works for people who aren't buddhist monks? it fights its own characterization of force users so hard. Also it flips the dark and light sides. Snoke wants a disspassionate dark sider and yoda and luke and the movie seem to want an emotional light sider. Which would be fine if they bothered to point out something changed. It'd be a neat story, at the very least.
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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby Marcuse » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:57 pm

Grimstone wrote:How I would rank jedi protagonists in order of training/experience: adult Anakin, Rey, Luke, young Anakin


I would completely disagree with this ranking. Assuming "young Anakin" is The Clone Wars era adolescent Anakin (because what would be the point in including a 9 year old child on the list?) then I would put it as:

Adult Anakin (ROTS)
Young Anakin (AOTC)
Old Luke (TLJ)
Luke (AHN - ROTJ)
Rey (TFA and TLJ)

Adult Anakin has been trained for two thirds of his life by Jedi Masters. Young Anakin has begun that training and has a few years of full time continuous study under his belt. Old Luke has a patchy collection of teaching from a pair of bitter old suicidal Jedi Masters who're more interested in throwing him at Vader than they are making him a spiritual master and whatever he's managed to pick up from writings since then. OT Luke even at the end really only has that specifically focused training from Yoda so he and ghost Ben can throw him at Vader. Rey has...well possibly some knowledge of the Force she roughly grabbed out of Kylo Ren's head, and the three lessons Luke offers to teach her, plus some idle lightsaber swinging on a rock once.
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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby Grimstone » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:19 pm

Marcuse wrote:what would be the point in including a 9 year old child on the list?


He built an android, pod raced, and destroyed a droid control ship. 9 year old Anakin may be on par with young Luke now that I think about it.

old luke >= vader > adult anakin >= kylo > rey > young luke >= young anakin
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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby Marcuse » Wed May 02, 2018 11:47 pm



This is a great, if a little over-explained, rationale why TLJ was poorly received. Personally I think I agree with the premise that if they had made Rey join with Kylo and actually follow through on the new direction, the movie would have been miles better. It's such a shame they fell back on the old Jedi/Sith dichotomy, and I actually find myself having a lot of sympathy for the overall theme of what Rian Johnson tried to do.
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