The Walking Dead

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Re: The Walking Dead

Postby KleinerKiller » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:48 pm

The finale will apparently be extended to 90 minutes. Badass. Hopefully. It'd be a waste to fill up an hour and a half and build up to nothing.

I'm seeing conflicting reports about what the big entrance is going to be. An unconfirmed possible spoiler leak on a few sites, possibly supported by a vague statement by Scott Gimple, claims that the camera actually is going to shift to an unidentified victim's POV and cut to black just as Lucille smashes down (as iMURDAu suggested). But other reports and interviews are saying that the big death WILL happen onscreen at the end, that it's the goriest explosion of gory gore and possibly the most nightmarish tearjerker ever on the show, and that the full scene will play out up to Negan leaving the group with a headless body on the ground.

I need the latter to be the case, because the first option WOULD NOT MAKE SENSE. There's no reason for a ratings grab with ratings at an all-time high (and presumably about to get even higher with all of the buzz about the scene), the source material doesn't have it as a cliffhanger (ie Jon Snow), they've just done the "THIS CHARACTER MIGHT BE DEAD TUNE IN NEXT TIME TO FIND OUT" with the newest development, the pacing would take a nosedive, and cutting the weight and impact and resolution of the scene would be a serious disservice to the hyped-up introduction of Jeffrey Dean Morgan and the legendary character he's finally bringing to life. I cannot imagine Kirkman being okay with that.

Fucking this up wouldn't just be shooting themselves in the foot. It'd be bringing a bat wrapped in barbed wire down on everything below their collective waist until it's liquidy mulch. At a time when everyone considers the Glenn fakeout to be the worst thing since the Woodbury season and everyone has uttered a collective sigh over the new cliffhanger, the show would never recover from something so insanely bullshit.
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Re: The Walking Dead

Postby Australia » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:20 pm

I think it should be Rick. From a character point, you can only grow and regress so many times before you get boring. From a story point, it would be the first time in ages that the show is just plain chaos. The group without a leader or being mutineganed would actually impact the show instead of just having the next episode be "found a new doctor/errand-runner/whiny brat". People wouldn't be following orders and it would result in a Lord of the Flies civil war, people leaving for a more stable, murderous group (though I don't think there's a group more murderous than Rick's at this point). It won't be but it should be.
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I'm more concerned that there wasn't one Jesus appearance on an Easter episode. Imagine if he'd died at the start and become a zombie at the end of the episode. Wasted opportunity.
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Re: The Walking Dead

Postby iMURDAu » Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:42 pm

Nah Jesus can't die and be reborn this soon. We don't even know he's gay yet.
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Re: The Walking Dead

Postby iMURDAu » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:44 am

I can't quit laughing. This is the funniest shit ever. AMC let the episode run over so anyone who used a DVR just got screwed. I'll never record the show again. There are other ways of watching it that result in zero dollars generated for AMC. Great job. Fantastic. Way to fuck yourselves out of future ratings. HAHAHAHAHAHA
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Re: The Walking Dead

Postby sunglasses » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:50 am

i do not watch twd. I do read it. ....um....eye sockets.
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Re: The Walking Dead

Postby KleinerKiller » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:03 am

Sorry to hear that iMURDAu. That shit really sucks.

Now... the episode.

The one I've been waiting for since Negan smashed his way into the comics, since those truckers and Dwight appeared, since I saw that Jeffrey Dean Morgan was cast in an iMDB article, since Bud said "Your property belongs to Negan", since they kept making bat puns, since Glenn saw those face-smash pictures in the Savior base, since... "Hi. I'm Negan."

Negan cometh.

Spoiler: show
The buildup to the big scene we all knew was coming was absolutely fantastic. Every time they round a corner on the road and see a different kind of blockade, the tension mounts. Rick is being corralled. For the first time in a while, he and his group are 100% powerless and no hope is in sight. The goodbye scene for Eugene's attempted suicide mission was emotionally powerful, and when the whistling started up and sent them all dashing straight into the Savior gathering, my breath caught. Grade-A stuff, no question.

Morgan and Carol's interludes in bumfuck nowhere were fine, I guess, but dragging and distracting from the point of the episode. I honestly thought Carol might die to that Savior (she's still in a terribly bad way and very near death), but Morgan finally breaks his one rule and shoots the asshole dead. And then the armor guys on horses show up. TIme for the motherfucking Kingdom and Ezekiel and maybe somehow the tiger or whatever animal they'll have to change it into because the tiger cannot work in live action. So that was really the only point of Carol's and Morgan's arcs here; the teasing of the Kingdom. Awesome, but did this episode really need to be stretched to 90 minutes just for that?

... Then they finally unveil the big man, Negan himself. Negan Negan Negan. Jeffrey Dean Morgan is as fantastic as everyone expected. He looks torn straight off the page, he carries Lucille like he popped out of the womb with that bat in his hand, and he injects every line with the rough, slimy charisma that makes Negan so likably hatable. To everyone's intense disappointment, he doesn't say "fuck" -- I'm curious whether we'll ever get to see the version of the scene AMC shot that contained all of the cussing, and I'm equally curious why "fuck" is the worst swear word of all time according to censors -- but that aside, he's pitch perfect. He embodies Negan, and he is without a doubt going to be great in the seasons to come; in this one scene, he's already better than the Governor.

Props to the other actors, too. The fear they exhibit looks completely genuine when they're facing Negan down (or up, I guess). I'm watching Talking Dead now, and apparently they looked like that even when the camera was on the opposite end of the row. They sell the fear. They sell that there is Something To Fear.

And then... "Eeny. Meeny. Miney. Moe."

And the clock ticks down.

And the rhyme runs out.

It is the best scene in the show's run, bar none. And it would have been one of the best scenes of this television year.

Had they not done the worst thing they could have done. The thing everyone was screaming at Scott Gimple not to do. The thing I freaked out over a couple of posts back. They switch to first person and don't reveal who it is. They are forcing fans to get into #WhoIsIt.

The big onscreen death of the season was fucking DENISE.

The only praise I will give this decision is that they don't cut it off right away, and it looks and sounds fucking brutal. There are a multitude of swings caught from the unidentified character's perspective, and they're heavy, and they're brutal, and they're wet, and they're Negan. Seeing it play out for real is not going to be a happy affair for anyone.

But you know what would have been better? Showing us the goddamned swings how they're meant to be shown.

Because now Season 7 is going to start with a major character's head caving in, and we'll have none of that buildup, none of that rawness, none of that horror. It'll be a popcorn betting game about who's right and who's wrong. This could have been the Red Wedding. This could have been Hannibal stabbing Will. This could have been the legendary moment of suffering that everyone talks about, everyone cries over, everyone is left forever scarred by. Instead, we have ninety minutes of buildup and filler capped by momentary excitement that fizzles out in the end.

What a waste. What a goddamn waste.
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Re: The Walking Dead

Postby gisambards » Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:28 pm

[Spoilers for both show and comic]
Spoiler: show
KleinerKiller wrote:Had they not done the worst thing they could have done. The thing everyone was screaming at Scott Gimple not to do. The thing I freaked out over a couple of posts back. They switch to first person and don't reveal who it is. They are forcing fans to get into #WhoIsIt.


That sounds really disappointing. I think it could be only more disappointing if it turns out the murdered person is in fact Glenn, because then you've had that pointless little bit of baiting followed by a payoff that won't be at all rewarding to fans of the comics.
I personally think the only way to redeem that ending would be if it turns out he's killed Rick, although my money's on it being Daryl.
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Re: The Walking Dead

Postby KleinerKiller » Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:57 pm

gisambards wrote:[Spoilers for both show and comic]
Spoiler: show
KleinerKiller wrote:Had they not done the worst thing they could have done. The thing everyone was screaming at Scott Gimple not to do. The thing I freaked out over a couple of posts back. They switch to first person and don't reveal who it is. They are forcing fans to get into #WhoIsIt.


That sounds really disappointing. I think it could be only more disappointing if it turns out the murdered person is in fact Glenn, because then you've had that pointless little bit of baiting followed by a payoff that won't be at all rewarding to fans of the comics.
I personally think the only way to redeem that ending would be if it turns out he's killed Rick, although my money's on it being Daryl.


Spoiler: show
I was almost hoping for it to be Glenn right away, because I know Steven Yeun would dominate the delivery of those final lines screaming for Maggie not to look and all that. Had they just chosen not to diverge at all from the source material for once, it'd still have been devastating. But since the person Negan kills appears to be pretty much silent during the affair for the purposes of #WhoIsIt, there's one more wasted opportunity for drama.

I just... I'm still struggling to wrap my head around why they would pursue such an empty tease. Negan stepping out, bashing someone's brains in, beating Rick within in an inch of his life, and skipping gaily away with the promise of returning is and always was the perfect season ending. It boggles the mind that not only did they find the need to dial it back to the bat swinging after all of that buildup, knowing that people would be enraged and a lot of viewers would just drop the show in protest, but that Robert Kirkman is okay with what they did to his most iconic scene.
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Re: The Walking Dead

Postby iMURDAu » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:22 pm

Does Kirkman have final say on everything though?

This is TV. This is how TV is done. Cliffhangers. Who shot JR for example. They've been doing it all season on TWD so it only made sense to me that it would end that way. This was done to piss off the fanbase and make everyone talk about the show for the next 6 months. I honestly don't have a problem with it. My problem is with the asshole network making the show go so far past the stated runtime.
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Re: The Walking Dead

Postby KleinerKiller » Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:17 pm

Well, this is... interesting.

Major spoilers for the finale if you haven't seen it, and for the Season 7 premiere if this audio-examining video ends up being correct.



Spoiler: show
If it is indeed just Glenn as in the comics, then fuck me, the mistake is tripled, because they're pointlessly cockteasing fans with talks of a difference only to lead up to the exact same result, only it will of course be drained of all the weight and impact because there won't be any of the goddamned buildup!
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Re: The Walking Dead

Postby 52xMax » Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:17 am

I disagree about the finale being a copout.
Spoiler: show
For one, everyone who's watching the show is going to be talking about it and speculating about who it was, whether it's fans or haters, so mission accomplished on that front. Second, the build-up was just right, Jeffrey Dean Morgan's monologue was epic, and made everyone forget that he's only on the last fifteen minutes of the season.

Rick is completely broken, something that has not happened before in the show. Even when the whole group was captured inside the train wagon waiting to become food in Terminus and it looked like they had no chance of being rescued (Carol had been exiled so no one knew she was coming), they still had plans for fighting back or die trying. The episode even starts with Rick all cocky, telling Deanna's son how he's "got a deal" for the saviors. But all the road blocks, Michonne's dread locks, Maggie on the verge of death, Eugene's sacrifice, every glimpse of hope faded away when they were herded into that clear in the woods, showing that Negan had been several steps away from them from the start and that the best elements of the group had been bested and outsmarted. Showing the kill scene was unnecessary, and I think that showing a literal blow to anyone's head might have taken away the impact from the metaphorical blow to what little remained of group morale.

And I don't believe for a second we're not going to see that skullbashing again in all its graphic glory along with the reveal at the start of the season. What a better way to kickstart things, and give a proper send off to whoever leaves the show, especially if it's one of the main characters (as opposed to, say, Aaron, or Rosita, whose death's impact while significant will never be the same as Rick's or Daryl's, or people who've been around from the early seasons). From then on, it's going to be interesting to see what approach the show takes in the new season, and what elements of the comics are yet to appear on the show.

I would not venture to take a guess as to who died, it could be pretty much anyone at this point, perhaps not Carl since Negan seemed to take a liking to him, not to mention he just lost an eye (which featured the actual big death of the season) so it'd be a shame to lose him just when he's starting to become interesting. Norman Reedus just got a new show on AMC so that's a big red flag, but Daryl is very, very popular, which is why he's remained part of the show even if his character never appeared in the comics, so people would lose their collective shit. Rick, Glenn? maybe, but I wouldn't bet on either of them, because this is Andrew Lincoln's cash cow (he hasn't even lost his hand yet, so I say it's at least a couple more seasons til he leaves) and Glenn just had a death scare, so if he's gone it'd feel cheap. Abraham and Michonne are the ones I fear for the most. Maggie? it would be really bold move, but it's possible. Dealing with baby Judith is already troublesome, add another baby to the mix would just complicate things for the writers, so there's that. Which leaves Eugene, Rosita, Aaron, and Sasha. According to the producers the scene was shot specifically so the audience couldn't tell who it was from any visual or sound cues, which means it really is up in the air, at least until photos from the new season start leaking and people start making guesses from that.


All in all, I think this was a pretty solid season from start to finish.
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Re: The Walking Dead

Postby KleinerKiller » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:54 am

I almost completely agree with you on other parts, Max, and I don't hate the finale overall as much as other critics and fans, but I have to disagree and address the big reasons why everyone has called the cliffhanger a copout.

Spoiler: show
It's not a matter of not seeing who dies. That kind of cliffhanger is fairly run-of-the-mill. The issues are twofold:

1) This entire back half of the season has been building up to a huge death, and while I'm all for Rick breaking and all of that depth and symbolism and whatnot, the finale made a promise to fans that was not upheld. The constant "right off the bat" references, the smashed corpse pictures in the Savior hideout, making sure we know that Negan's policy is bludgeoning someone to death. We knew going into the finale, from all of that hype and the trailer, that Negan would make his grand entrance and end someone's life the way he does in the comics. What did we know after the finale? That Negan made his grand entrance and ended someone's life the way he does in the comics. After what is probably the best scene in the show's run (and the debut of the best character bar none), there is no question answered, no release for the suspense, no end to the seasonal arc. The story development is virtually nonexistent. Rick and his group are broken now, yes, but showing the big kill scene wouldn't have taken away at all from that. It certainly didn't in the comics.

2) When someone dies in the Season 7 opening, it will be completely removed from the pitch-perfect suspense buildup that preceded it. The tension built throughout that spectacular scene is gone, and now everyone is just waiting to see whose guess is right. It will have to be a pre-Governor mainstay like Glenn or Daryl or Michonne (even Abraham or Eugene should be too low-level for the Negan kill, though I have a sad suspicion that Abraham was saved from the arrow-to-the-eye death for this), and bidding goodbye to a character on that tier in the opening moments of the season will be more jarring than heartbreaking. Enormous deaths need buildup, and a yearlong wait doesn't count. I've said it before, and I'll say it again; it's a waste of what could have been The Walking Dead's Red Wedding moment.

I don't like being negative about the shows I love. I'm willing to give more leeway to the mistakes they make when they have splendid payoff. Jeffrey Dean Morgan is, as I said, a flawless Negan, and his debut is, I once again reiterate, the series' undisputed best scene (only the siege of the prison, the Terminus Hunters confronting Rick's group in the church, and the climax of "The Grove" even come close to holding a candle to it). So to have what should rightfully be the cap to his shining step into the spotlight robbed for reasons I and many others grow increasingly cynical about as days go by hurts more than enduring any comically shitty episode of Gotham.
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Re: The Walking Dead

Postby Australia » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:20 am

You know what would have made Fear the Walking Dead interesting? Have the family show up as cameos in the background of the season 6 finale as Negan's crew. Just show that he has brought in people that were once nice and boring so could do the same for Rick's crew and then we'd get to see how they became willing participants in their show and how they and Rick duke it out in his show. Having said that, I probably still wouldn't watch the spinoff.
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Re: The Walking Dead

Postby KleinerKiller » Thu May 05, 2016 11:37 pm

Time for more post-finale damage control! Oh, boy!

Robert Kirkman wrote a letter to series fans in the latest issue of the comic, giving more mealy-mouthed justification in the vein of Scott Gimple and the members of the cast.

Some choice bits from the article:

"The speculation, the frustration, the possibilities, the theories... honestly, in my mind... that stuff is FUN," Kirkman wrote in an open letter to fans in the latest issue of The Walking Dead comic. "I honestly feel like that's something fun for the fans to do during the break."


Sure, it can be fun. It's fun when it's not inevitably going to put a gaping hole through the pacing and ruin the potential for a truly traumatic death scene. It's fun when it doesn't serve as punctuation to a season that has been entirely focused on letting the audience know a death is coming in the finale. Besides, the reason is, was, and always will be a ratings grab. Don't insult the intelligence of your fans, Kirkman.

Last season's finale will lead right into the new season, with a twist that fans "probably won't see coming."


If it's Daryl instead of Glenn, everyone but the most die-hard "he dies, we riot" obsessives will have seen it coming. If it's Michonne, or Abraham, or Eugene, everyone will have seen it coming. The only twists that will truly shock people after this wait would be Rick or Carl biting it, the victim somehow surviving and killing Negan when his back is turned, or Nicholas's body falling in front of the bat while the whole group rolls under a nearby dumpster.

Kirkman also noted he's "sorry" the effort to "get people excited" backfired for some fans. "We weren't trying to drive you crazy, and we certainly weren't trying to FORCE you to come back for season 7," he wrote. "We hope you were always planning on doing that and still plan on doing that."


You know what would've gotten people excited and ensured that the already massive fanbase comes back for another season (which they would have no matter what)? Actually showing Negan's introduction in all of its glory, completely cementing him in the eyes of comic fans and newcomers alike as the ultimate threat in the series so far, and closing the season with the Saviors driving away and leaving Rick and the group shellshocked and broken. A narrative conclusion that doesn't turn the tragedy into a hashtag betting game.

I know I've ranted about this more than anyone here at this point, but... gah. Seeing shit like this from the creator of the whole Walking Dead universe, even if it is almost certainly a network-mandated PR spin attempt, hits my core as a writer and world-builder. There's just no integrity in this.
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Re: The Walking Dead

Postby gisambards » Fri May 06, 2016 12:31 am

The whole Negan finale situation is such a gross mishandling of the great potential that situation and that character have. It's bad enough that they've gone for a cheap by-the-numbers publicity stunt ahead of what the audience clearly wanted - a move which, I feel, shows they're making a show they feel will be successful more than making a show they'd actually want to watch, an approach which I think often stops potentially great films and shows achieving that greatness - but what's worse is it's actually a very weak attempt at the speculative cliffhanger: there's nothing to speculate about.

I agree with Kirkman that speculation about what comes next can be fun, but only when you're given room for speculation. Speculating on what will happen in the next Marvel or Star Wars movie is fun because we're given enough information and possibilities to have theories about what might happen, but we have very little information so those theories can be varied. That's what's fun. Whereas with the Walking Dead, the "speculation" is literally just: which of the few characters Negan could have killed has Negan killed? And there's no way to theorise based on what's in-universe, as there are no clues in show: you may as well pull a name from a hat, and be just as likely to be right as any amount of speculation on that front.

Instead, the only speculation that can be done has to be entirely based on real-world stuff - Who is due a killing-off? Are they really stupid enough for it to just be Glenn? etc. - which is not as fun as it removes the escapism aspect and also reminds us that the story is told by people who are just as likely to make decisions for marketing reasons as for creative ones.

To conclude, the whole thing sucks, which is disappointing as Negan as done in the comics is one of my favourite pop-culture bad guys, and the scene they've cocked up is a major contributing factor to that. And it's particularly disappointing that Robert Kirkman, Negan's creator, is endorsing it.
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