Game of Thrones [Spoilers heavy]

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Re: Game of Thrones [Spoilers heavy]

Postby Marcuse » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:22 pm

Spoiler: show
Aquila89 wrote:The Night King has no such concerns. What's stopping him from flying to King's Landing and burning it to the ground, killing the million people who live there?


In fact, the opposite is true. Being undead, everyone he kills swells his army and only through massive casualties can he keep his forces replenished. They're actually going to have to explain precisely why he doesn't immediately do that. Before the Wall fell they could have at least said he was limited by the magic of the wall, but now there's no reason for him not to go to every castle in turn and burn it to rubble. Viserion doesn't need to eat, sleep, or rest and every second he's not killing is a waste which the plot will need to justify or it'll make no sense.
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Re: Game of Thrones [Spoilers heavy]

Postby DamianaRaven » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:25 am

Spoiler: show
Bodies that are burned can't be reanimated. If he wants more zombies for his army, bursting in on a wave of fire is a very inefficient way of doing that.
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Re: Game of Thrones [Spoilers heavy]

Postby Aquila89 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:13 pm

DamianaRaven wrote:
Spoiler: show
Bodies that are burned can't be reanimated. If he wants more zombies for his army, bursting in on a wave of fire is a very inefficient way of doing that.


Spoiler: show
If the plot demanded it, it could easily be handwaved that the thing Viserion produces isn't really fire,
and doesn't burn people but turns them into wights. But since the plot demands the opposite, I guess that won't be done.

But what is the Night KIng's aim? If he just wants everyone dead, he doesn't need more zombies now that he got a dragon, and he can simply burn everyone.
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Re: Game of Thrones [Spoilers heavy]

Postby Marcuse » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:17 am

Spoiler: show
The books have multiple mentions of "ice dragons", which were seen before this series was aired as a harbinger that we might see one at some point in the series. Clearly that was correct, and when you look at it like that then it's entirely possible that the thing Viserion breathed in episode 7 was just to break the magic of the wall, which is why it exploded instead of melting.

Though really if you want Viserion to still breathe fire there's a great way the Night King can win in about a week.
All he does is burn their grain stores. Then everyone starves and turns into zombies. Boom. Done. If the show was focused on more than fan service "badass" scenes, then they might have considered that. But I'm sure the Night King just has a dragon to get an epic dragon fight scene.
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Re: Game of Thrones [Spoilers heavy]

Postby DamianaRaven » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:26 pm

I wanted to share this page here because it has some really good theories. I had never considered the Iron Bank angle!
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Re: Game of Thrones [Spoilers heavy]

Postby Marcuse » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:47 pm

This is a good article trying to explain why the high/low fantasy clash is contributing to the waning of GoT interest. It's basically the argument that introducing the "high" fantasy elements like omniscient children and a credible ice zombie threat has meant that the show can't rely on its chief draw elements: politicking and intelligent schemers. Largely, I agree, though I feel like it would be better served if, like the Wildlings (who were also initially presented as an implacable and eternal foe who couldn't be reasoned with), the Others were actually characterised and given some degree of motivation. Right now you can't politic with or negotiate with an unliving enemy that just wants to kill you, but that's one dimensional. They were clearly using human stock for recruitment, and why not make it a play on this? I wonder if the books will use some kind of element like that to make the Others more relatable and try to keep the politics in the show.
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Re: Game of Thrones [Spoilers heavy]

Postby Australia » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:13 am

I completely disagree. I think what makes them a threat is that everyone is used to talking themselves out of situations and with the Whitewalkers, you just can't. Like Jon says, everyone's on the same side because they're breathing. But I've always been a 'come for the fantasy elements, stay for the politics and scheming' kind of viewer, so the more out there stuff, the better. Season six is my favourite season and I'd put seven above four and five where it just felt like treading water outside of Tyrion's arc in season four and Hardhome in season five. Stuff is coming to fruition and I love it.
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Re: Game of Thrones [Spoilers heavy]

Postby Marcuse » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:49 pm

Spoiler: show
Usually, what media does with the "we're all still breathing so we band together" thing is have the evil fucks be evil fucks towards the really bad guys and we cheer them for the time they're being shit people to the people we really don't like. See things like Star Wars where criminals joined the Rebellion (and also movies like the Last Starfighter), and characters like Snape in Harry Potter. So I would have expected Littlefinger and Varys etc to be of serious and eminent use to the living in convincing people who don't believe them that they're telling the truth, manipulating recalcitrant groups to get booted out by more conducive minds (you know, like when Littlefinger brought Highgarden into the War of the Five Kings on the Lannister side instead of Stannis'), or just planning deception and misdirection aimed at the White Walkers. How cool would it have been to actually root for Littlefinger because even though he's a complete prick he was working on keeping the world alive? I would have definitely have enjoyed it.

But they didn't do that, they just had him creep around Winterfell until an omniscient boy decided he was surplus to requirements and they just killed him. He didn't even try to explain his actions, or discredit the knowledge of a boy who was about 6 when most of the things he was supposed to have done happened, or known to be far away at the time. The Walkers being so impossible to negotiate with has allowed the showrunners the excuse of their threat to jettison everyone who isn't a big damn hero so they can solve their problems with violence. I'm not sure that was where the series was supposed to be going, unless Jon being lionised for not murdering all the wildlings and Dany trying really hard to avoid being a mass murderer were just unintentional things in both book and show.
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Re: Game of Thrones [Spoilers heavy]

Postby CarrieVS » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:09 pm

Littlefinger? Is anyone still alive in the show? (Apart from, inexplicably, Theon.)
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Re: Game of Thrones [Spoilers heavy]

Postby Aquila89 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:15 pm

Marcuse wrote:This is a good article trying to explain why the high/low fantasy clash is contributing to the waning of GoT interest.


What waning interest? This season was the highest-rated one. Don't you mean declining quality?
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Re: Game of Thrones [Spoilers heavy]

Postby Australia » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:42 am

Spoiler: show
But I wouldn't have been rooting for Littlefinger because everything out of his mouth is a lie and I wouldn't have trusted that he wasn't pulling a Cersei. As it was, I found his death immensely satisfying, where he tried everything in his wheelhouse to get out of it, getting more and more desperate until he got what was coming to him. There's been several interesting redemption arcs or doing the right things for the wrong reasons on Game of Thrones. But I wouldn't have bought Littlefinger lifting a finger for a second. Isn't it more fitting for his character to remain a selfish dick to the end than to completely backtrack at the last minute?

Likewise if they suddenly had the Whitewalkers, who they've set up as monsters from the first episode suddenly be just like every other human where the characters can deal with them just like they have every other antagonist they've come across. The whole point is this isn't something most of them have even come close to dealing with. How boring would the final season be if they just use scare tactics or bargaining or wine-poisoning or sleight of hand to win for the hundredth time? Whether they like it or not, the third act has arrived and now is the time for action.

Again, I know everyone watches the show for different reasons, but there's character development and there's character 180s and if there's one thing we know about Littlefinger is he's consistent and I don't buy him being loyal to any cause, world-ending or otherwise.
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Re: Game of Thrones [Spoilers heavy]

Postby Marcuse » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:21 pm

Spoiler: show
But I wouldn't have bought Littlefinger lifting a finger for a second. Isn't it more fitting for his character to remain a selfish dick to the end than to completely backtrack at the last minute?


I'm surprised. This is super super common in media. The bad guy who wants to take over the world stands with the hero to stop the really bad guy who wants to destroy the world because you can't rule a smoking ruin. It's a source of interest and drama because we also know the bad guy will be angling to come out of the crisis on top. It's like when the Master works alongside the Doctor to stop Rassilon in The End of Time. The whole point is that temporarily, the villain's self interest is aligned with the conviction of the heroes because they're only aiming for survival. That's only made possible by the overwhelming threat that the big bad represents. As Jon says in the show, they're all on the same side merely by dint of still breathing, and why would anyone ever go against that. Obviously Cersei, but it's been long established that she's nigh insane and would cut her own nose off to spite her face and we're not supposed to agree with her, as shown by Jaime leaving her to fulfil his promise to ride North. I don't know why it would be so unbelievable that a character who is so smart he can work for his enemies for decades, plotting secretly to overthrow them, can't put aside his personal ambitions to prevent the world being conquered by implacable ice zombies.

As it was, I found his death immensely satisfying, where he tried everything in his wheelhouse to get out of it, getting more and more desperate until he got what was coming to him.


On the specific bolded part there, he absolutely did not do close to everything in his wheelhouse to get out of it.
Why didn't he point out that, over the death of Lysa, that Sansa has changed her story. Sansa lied, by her own admission when she changed her story, to Bronze Yohn and told him that Lysa threw herself out the Moon Door.
Now she's saying that Littlefinger did it, and gives no justification for this, nor is it questioned. If Sandra is lying about this, what else is she lying about? The stuff about Ned has literally nothing to it aside from the word of Bran,
who is not exactly accepted as a magic time wizard by the general population. At the very least it should have been possible to discredit that statement, especially as it was known that Bran was nowhere near King's Landing at the time. On top of this, Littlefinger was engaged by Ned to bribe the Gold Cloaks to overthrow the Lannisters, who were at the time the legitimately ruling house in the eyes of the law as far as anyone knew. Littlefinger couldn't argue that he acted according to the law as he saw it? He didn't kill Ned, it's long been accepted, and stated by Sansa that Joffrey was responsible for killing Ned, even freaking Cersei didn't want that. The letter from Lysa to Catelyn was written in a code only they knew, and the only copy was burned after reading, there's no proof about John Arryn either. They come at him with no proof, nobody questions him, Littlefinger doesn't say anything about all these inconsistencies, and he just gets killed. I don't have a problem if you found that satisfying, I don't think my view of the show is the only one that exists, but I feel like you're characterising it in a way that doesn't reflect the content we're presented with. It's not like GoT has ever been afraid of long tense conversations before, so I personally was disappointed that there was no adequate defense of Littlefinger at all.

Also Sandra gave the sentence and let someone else swing the sword. Tut tut.
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Re: Game of Thrones [Spoilers heavy]

Postby Aquila89 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:06 pm

It's funny that we're spoilering everything here, and then Marcuse casually reveals a major character death.

Spoiler: show
Yeah, Littlefinger's defense was weak, though even if he tried to talk his way out, Sansa still could've had him killed. The concept of a fair trial doesn't seem to really exist in Westeros; the lord has jurisdiction his land. Remember Tyrion's trial in the Vale. Robin Arryn would've been his judge, because he was the lord there, even though it was eminently clear that he isn't fit to judge anything. There was no evidence against Tyrion either, but if he hadn't demanded a trial in combat, he would've been executed there, and lawfully so.

The only passable explanation I heard for Littlefinger's behavior is that he did love Sansa - "in his own horrible way",
as she said - and he was so stunned by the fact that she turned against him that he lost his wits.


As for the "siding with horrible people against the existential threat" possibility:

Spoiler: show
if Cersei's promise of alliance was true, it could've been an example of that. But alas, she's not just evil but insane too. The alliance with the wildlings could've been handled this way, if the show still had Thenns for example.
Remember the Thenn leader from Hardhome? He could've survived, could've been convinced by what he saw and he could've decided to fight on the side of the living. But the show presents the alliance with wildlings as morally unambiguous by now. They kind of want us to forget that Tormund led an attack that slaughtered an entire village,
just to draw the Night's Watch out to the field.
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Re: Game of Thrones [Spoilers heavy]

Postby Australia » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:03 pm

Spoiler: show
Pfft, like the truth is ever in Littlefinger's wheelhouse. I just meant from the second they flip the script on him, he goes through every trick in his book - he denies, he threatens, he bargains, he pleads, he tries to leave, all in the span of a minute or two and finally he realises he's been out-Littlefingered and is just on his knees, crying, and in that respect it is something we'd never expect that character to ever do and it's earned. It's one of my favourite acting moments in the series. Like I said, that antagonist-turned-ally trope is great when it works, and they've done it in this show several times, including in the same episode with Jaime, for the same reason and I bought it because he's loyal to too many people, as opposed to Littlefinger, who's loyal to literally nobody. But for every example where the trope works, there's one where it doesn't. One of the most glaring for me was in an episode of Prison Break where the dickhead guard is suddenly sacrificing himself for the team and it made no sense for his character and took me out of the show completely (the show was trash by that point anyway but still. The Walking Dead also has several atrocious executions of this trope). And I can't think of a scenario where I'd buy the most consistent character in Game of Thrones flipping the switch overnight. Literally any other Game of Thrones villain in this scenario, I'd be like, that makes sense. I even thought that briefly with Cersei. But with Littlefinger, I'd just be assuming he was lying and wondering what his angle is, despite, you know, the survival of the human race being on the table. That's the difference between characters not trusting each other and audiences not trusting the characters.
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Re: Game of Thrones [Spoilers heavy]

Postby DamianaRaven » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:11 am

I say enough with hiding the "spoilers" already! Anyone who's in this thread (with "spoilers heavy" in the title) without having caught up on the story... well, bless their hearts!
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