Doctor Who?

What have you been watching?

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Marcuse » Sat May 18, 2013 10:45 pm

Spoiler: show
What it looks like to me is that JH is going to be playing an incarnation of the 9th Doctor, as Chris Eccleston has said he won't return as the Doctor for the 50th episode.

I'm just a junkie for grimdark stuff and I would love to see a Doctor actually give reign to the stuff they have been talking about him holding in for so long. They seem to have been getting close to it with 11 but I would like to see a full on vengeful Doctor at war with the bad guys instead of running away. It would be an interesting change.
  • 1

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6592
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby BobTheZombie » Sun May 19, 2013 12:50 am

I'm not sure if this needs to be a spoiler but I've felt that Russell T. Davies time as head writer was better. I felt that his episodes are more cohesive and the arcs are better. I feel like Moffat's episodes are all concept but poor execution. I'm not saying they're bad, just that they lack the structure of Davies's episodes. I find I'm less enthralled by them and that I'm not too bothered if I miss an episode. The worst offender for me was Let's Kill Hitler.
Spoiler: show
They reduced a potentially intriguing villain in Hitler to a sideshow clown. The bit at the beginning where they introduce Mels, and pretend that she's some kind of awesome character that just happened to never be mentioned before then, was particularly grating. Honestly I think that Moffat is a great idea man but he seems to lose interest with what he's writing halfway through and seems more interested in massive OTT moments than the build-up to them or the aftermath of them.
Today's episode was good but I'm getting sick of that 'epic Doctor Who music' or whatever it's called playing very 5 minutes. I also felt that the vampire villains were cool but they just kind of disappeared and fizzled out without much consideration. My favourite kind of Doctor Who episodes are the scary/freaky ones and the ones that are just pure childlike fantasy. I think when they try to go epic (a lot of the time, especially under Moffat, just for the sake of it) that they lack proper cohesion. Again though, this is probably just me.
Also John Hurt intrigues me.
  • 1

Last edited by BobTheZombie on Sun May 19, 2013 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Defeating a sandwich only makes it tastier!" - Virginia from Dragonzball P
User avatar
BobTheZombie
TCS Camper
TCS Camper
 
Posts: 875
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Ireland
Show rep
Title: Pessimistic Optimist

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby AboveGL » Sun May 19, 2013 12:52 am

It would have been a better climax had it been, like with earlier series in the revival, fleshed out out over two episodes.
  • 0

AboveGL
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 1797
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:37 pm
Show rep

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby BobTheZombie » Sun May 19, 2013 12:58 am

AboveGL wrote:It would have been a better climax had it been, like with earlier series in the revival, fleshed out out over two episodes.


Exactly. I feel like a lot of the time he tries to cram too much into too little time. Thinking back I really enjoyed
Spoiler: show
the Bad Wolf mystery. I was really intrigued with what it meant. I also liked The Face of Boe, mainly due to the episodes that featured him were spaced out and each time we saw him we got an excellent view into how the times have changed. I think that if Moffat were writing these mysteries that he would have 'blown-the-load' so to speak in 1 or 2 episodes.
  • 0

"Defeating a sandwich only makes it tastier!" - Virginia from Dragonzball P
User avatar
BobTheZombie
TCS Camper
TCS Camper
 
Posts: 875
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Ireland
Show rep
Title: Pessimistic Optimist

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Marcuse » Sun May 19, 2013 9:21 am

Bobthezombie wrote:Exactly. I feel like a lot of the time he tries to cram too much into too little time


I think that's more to do with budgetary concerns than poor storytelling. I agree that the stories are shorter but I feel that Moffat actually changes things in the lore, where Davies was so concerned with wrapping everything up with a neat bow that actually by the end of an episode nothing about the lore had altered at all.

I like that new characters have been introduced, different things happen with them and they don't all just go home at the end
Spoiler: show
like at the end of the episodes with Davros. They just push a button and poof! all better.
  • 0

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6592
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby VaughnJess » Sun May 19, 2013 1:18 pm

Spoiler: show
There are two main theories I've read about the Hurt Doctor:

1. He was involved in the Time War in some way, either as an incarnation that the Doctor wants to forget (which would make Smith the 12th Doctor) or an older version of the Eighth Doctor, or something crazy that only Moffat will think of.

2. He's The Valeyard, a character who is meant to be a representative of the Doctor's dark side and occurs between his 12th and 13th incarnations.

Either way, I'm really excited to find out!
  • 2

User avatar
VaughnJess
Commenter
Commenter
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Australia
Show rep

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby BobTheZombie » Sun May 19, 2013 2:29 pm

Marcuse wrote:
Bobthezombie wrote:Exactly. I feel like a lot of the time he tries to cram too much into too little time


I think that's more to do with budgetary concerns than poor storytelling. I agree that the stories are shorter but I feel that Moffat actually changes things in the lore, where Davies was so concerned with wrapping everything up with a neat bow that actually by the end of an episode nothing about the lore had altered at all.

I like that new characters have been introduced, different things happen with them and they don't all just go home at the end
Spoiler: show
like at the end of the episodes with Davros. They just push a button and poof! all better.


Well I am glad that he's trying to make an impact on the overall Doctor Who mythology but I don't think he's cramming in too much due to budget concerns. The example I used with Mels in Let's Kill Hitler had absolutely nothing to do with budget, it was just a purely rushed story.

VaughnJess wrote:
Spoiler: show
There are two main theories I've read about the Hurt Doctor:

1. He was involved in the Time War in some way, either as an incarnation that the Doctor wants to forget (which would make Smith the 12th Doctor) or an older version of the Eighth Doctor, or something crazy that only Moffat will think of.

2. He's The Valeyard, a character who is meant to be a representative of the Doctor's dark side and occurs between his 12th and 13th incarnations.

Either way, I'm really excited to find out!


Good call on the 2nd theory. I just had to wiki it and I think you might be right.
  • 2

"Defeating a sandwich only makes it tastier!" - Virginia from Dragonzball P
User avatar
BobTheZombie
TCS Camper
TCS Camper
 
Posts: 875
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Ireland
Show rep
Title: Pessimistic Optimist

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Marcuse » Sun May 19, 2013 7:05 pm

Spoiler: show
The only problem I have with the Valeyard theory is that Matt Smith refers to JH in the past tense. He seems to think of this new Doctor as a dark secret from his past, which suggests he is the Doctor from the Time War. As the Valeyard is scheduled to occur between the 12th and 13th incarnations he wouldn't think of him in the past tense, or consider him a memory. Of course he might be remembering the future but we have no indication of that.

Additionally, when JH says his little piece. "What I did was without choice" Matt Smith replies "I know". Only when JH claims this is in the name of "sanity and peace" does he become angry and claim it was not in the name of the Doctor. This suggests that the current Doctor has a degree of sympathy with the JH Doctor even if he condemns the actions. He seems to accept the statement that this Doctor had no choice and that those actions were somehow necessary. I don't believe he would express as much sympathy with the Valeyard because he's specifically an evil reflection of the Doctor and wouldn't be doing things the Doctor would approve of.


Bob I think you are probably right but I think the distinction between the two can be seen like this. Russell T Davies was a methodical writer that made sure to place things into scenes before they became important, and indicated the final plot of the finale. His thorough style has it's merits, but I felt that the episodes lacked a feeling of spectacle and generally left me feeling as though nothing had happened, both at the end of series and individual episodes. I feel that, by contrast, Moffat is a mad genius that throws out crazy ideas in a chaotic manner that sometimes defies storytelling method but provides much more spectacle and, to me, entertainment than the more staid style that Davies had.

I think another thing that I prefer is that Davies was too concerned with cultural critique of the real world, and it grounded the stories too much in mundanity when a more fantastic approach can provide what is to me a more accurate depiction of what the Doctor's life would be like. As much as there are plot holes or missed opportunities, I have more fun with Moffat's Doctor.
  • 4

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6592
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby VaughnJess » Mon May 20, 2013 12:33 am

I have the exact opposite view to Davies and Moffat than you Marcuse! I love that Davies focused on the domestic aspect of the companion's lives; it helped me connect to them as people as I could see the effect travelling with the Doctor had on their lives and their family's lives. It also seems like, as we're going about our mundane lives, the Doctor could just show up out of nowhere, grab our hand and say, 'Run!' and we'd be whisked away into his world.

I find Moffat's crazy timey-wimey plots a bit too all-over-the-place. I feel like Moffat's episodes might have the imagination, but they lack the heart of the Davies' era. The focus is more on the Doctor and the implications of time travel, which although can be exciting, I don't seem to connect to it on an emotional level.

Gladstone tweeted something about this today, and I think it's a pretty good summation of the difference between them: "Davies asks "if you could travel space and time what would you do?" Moffat asks "What would The Doctor be like?""

Also, about The Name of the Doctor:
Spoiler: show
I think fans really just want a canon explanation for The Valeyard, since he played a larger role in the non-canon novels. If he was involved in the Time War, the question is whether he's an actual incarnation or just an aspect of the Doctor that he sees as separate from himself, or something else.
  • 3

User avatar
VaughnJess
Commenter
Commenter
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Australia
Show rep

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby BobTheZombie » Mon May 20, 2013 12:46 am

I can see where you are coming from Marcuse, and it's probably down to personal preference, but I just like a bit more structure to the stories I watch. I love surprises and plot twists but not when you have to overlook a lot of things to enjoy it. As I said before, I think Moffat loves these surprise moments but he isn't too keen on the meat of the episode so he tries to get everything done in a hurry to get to these surprises. I also think he tries to make every episode epic. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but does the plot of every episode have to involve the fate of the universe or the fate of a familiar face? It just seems like a kind of cheap way of storytelling to me and it dilutes the effect when the doctor actually does something epic.
Spoiler: show
I really liked the recent episode 'The Crimson Horror' because it was eerie, had great character moments and the fate of the universe wasn't at stake ( ifound out later that Moffat didn't write this episode). I like a lot of his episodes though (Blink, Silence in the Library to name 2). Maybe my main gripe with Moffat episodes is this song being used too often. It's become really repetitive.


This is going to sound corny but for me good story-telling is as much about the journey as the destination. I just feel that too often Moffat (in certain episodes only, mind) rushes the journey to get to the destination and that's probably the best way I can sum up how I feel about Steven Moffat.

EDIT: I agree with VaughnJess. I really got involved with The Doctor during Davies's time. Those episodes it almost felt like you were one of his companions but Moffat's time seems more like just watching a man time travel. Still fun but I'm not as sorry if I miss an episode because it's less emotionally engaging.
  • 4

"Defeating a sandwich only makes it tastier!" - Virginia from Dragonzball P
User avatar
BobTheZombie
TCS Camper
TCS Camper
 
Posts: 875
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Ireland
Show rep
Title: Pessimistic Optimist

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Marcuse » Mon May 20, 2013 11:58 am

I hear you on that. I did enjoy the more coherent style of Davies in a way, but I feel like Moffat shares the joy of writing with the joy of viewing. I found Davies competent but there were times where I got really frustrated.

For example, the first couple of seasons (Eccleston and Tennant's first). Look at the locations, they were some combination of Earth (London), Earth orbit, Earth (Cardiff), Earth orbit, etc etc. With all of time and space to choose from, I found this to be unimaginative. Compare with the opening of Asylum of the Daleks which opens on Skaro. I like those kind of moments, even if some plotlines are a bit rushed.

Episodes like Midnight really showed off Davies' style and he wrote a great story there, but I found the comment on modern society to be a bit preachy in the end, and spent too much time the whole "people are the real monsters" thing for my liking.

My other bugbear with the series was repetition of certain phrases, such as "millions and billions of.." or "I'm so so sorry". These were obviously meant as a motif that characterised the Doctor, but I felt they began to be lazy fallbacks that the writers could use when something happens/needs to be amazing. Once you have heard something often enough it loses it's impact. Not that Moffat doesnt also do this, but less so.

Also, about the feel of the series. I agree that with Davies' series you felt like the companions did, discovering time and space without limits. That was probably the correct thing to do at the beginning of a new run of series, but I prefer Moffat's focus more on the Doctor.

In Davies' series the Doctor is presented as a sort of Godlike being with power and knowledge beyond our ken. He never does anything really wrong, and when he does he's stopped by companions (Eccleston's finale for example). This alters a bit towards the end (Waters of Mars etc) but for the majority of the time he's got very little depth in this respect.

Moffat's Doctor, by contrast, teeters on the edge of an abyss all the time. He has the same power, knowledge, and even judgement as Davies Doctor, but he isn't always right, he doesn't always do the best thing for his companions, and he seems to care a bit less when things go wrong. One of the catchphrases for the Moffat series has been "The Doctor lies". Which would never have been true for Rose, or Martha because they worshipped the Doctor.

Compare that devotion to the Doctor's speech in "Praise Him" when he willingly destroys Amy's faith in him by baldly stating the fairly selfish reasons why he brought her with him. As much as you could argue he's exaggerating for effect, there's a grain of truth there, something we never saw in Davies' Doctor.

I like Moffat's series because we get to see what happens to a 1000 year old being that has fought wars and struggled as the only member of his species. We get to see how much rage and hate he can have for his enemies, and how much it takes for him to hold that all back and still be the Doctor we all love. I like to see that mask slip once in a while because it is interesting character development and while I agree Moffat rushes some of the plot and doesn't build the reveals as much there is a lot to have fun with in his version of the Doctor.
  • 4

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6592
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby AboveGL » Mon May 20, 2013 12:04 pm

I think you're spot on with Moffat's doctor and my reasons for loving Matt Smith's incarnation is exactly as you stated here. Not to mention, the 11th seems a bit more "human" with those traits you mentioned.
  • 1

AboveGL
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 1797
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:37 pm
Show rep

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby BobTheZombie » Mon May 20, 2013 8:03 pm

I definitely agree with you about Davies insisting on stories be set on earth or essentially earth. Fair enough that The Doctor is a time traveller but he's also a space traveller too and I think Davies forgot that at times. Or maybe, calling back to your original comments, BBC didn't have the budget they had back then to properly do a lot of space episodes. I remember the episode The Impossible Planet from a few years ago. I really liked the tone of that episode and the way we, as viewers, were exploring the planet with the Doctor. I do feel like Moffat adds more depth to the Doctor and humanises him (despite the fact most recent episodes seem to end with the epic music blaring as The Doctor is made out to be a god-like figure). However, if the episode around the Doctor isn't up to scratch then it's not worth it. Again, just my opinion.*
*It may seem like I'm being a bit petty but I actually like a lot of Moffat's episodes. Looking back some of my favourite episodes of the Davies era were written by Moffat. I just think that a lot of his episodes since he became head writer aren't as good as the ones he wrote when Davies was at the helm.
  • 2

"Defeating a sandwich only makes it tastier!" - Virginia from Dragonzball P
User avatar
BobTheZombie
TCS Camper
TCS Camper
 
Posts: 875
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:11 pm
Location: Ireland
Show rep
Title: Pessimistic Optimist

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby Marcuse » Mon May 20, 2013 8:25 pm

Bobthezombie wrote:(despite the fact most recent episodes seem to end with the epic music blaring as The Doctor is made out to be a god-like figure).


I think (hope) that that's deliberate. I believe that there are elements that existed in the Davies era that have been twisted into a different form in Moffat's stories. Take the episode "A Good Man Goes to War" as an example (in spoilers in case someone hasn't seen it).

Spoiler: show
The Doctor launches an all-out assault on a fortified base to get back Amy Pond. He draws in allies and friends from a variety of places and defeats his enemy without a single casualty on either side. But as he does so, and as he wins his greatest victory he becomes the most complacent and misses the most important thing: baby River has been stolen with a now obvious ploy. He wins the battle but loses the war through nothing other than arrogance and a sense of superiority. As he discovers this his friends are attacked by a hidden enemy he didn't see were there (headless monks). For all his power, for all his knowledge, he still fails where it matters most and that's the difference. Depicting the Doctor as godlike in the Davies era was unironic, but in the Moffat era he at least sometimes injects some irony into the mix to develop the character.
  • 0

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6592
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: Doctor Who?

Postby CleverDick » Wed May 22, 2013 1:55 pm

And then Brockway commented:
Spoiler: show
I don't have any idea what happened in the last five minutes of the newest Doctor Who, but I'm pretty sure that's the least anybody has ever expected John Hurt.
  • 2

Ashtherion wrote:We're not worse at drinking, we're just better at being intoxicated, so we don't have to spend so much on beer.
Suck our tiny economical dicks, white people.
User avatar
CleverDick
Dr. Jan Itor
Dr. Jan Itor
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:06 pm
Location: In a sexy French depression
Show rep
Title: Dozenare

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests

cron