The Unified Star Wars Thread

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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby Marcuse » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:47 am

Order 66 did miss a ton of Jedi. That's why Vader was engaged for many of that 20 year gap hunting them down and killing them. Fittingly for Palpatine, Order 66 was about breaking the political power of the Jedi and painting them as terrorists and rebels who were trying to take over the Republic. Mace Windu did make an attempt on the life of the Chancellor of the Republic because they had a disagreement over religious belief. Palpatine was only defending himself when he killed Windu.

Of course, the pre-planning Palpatine did to orchestrate the Clone Wars and implant the Order into the clones in advance proves he knew and expected that they would try to do that, and intended to use his position as Chancellor to paint the Jedi as traitors. But the Jedi fell into it hook, line and sinker. Regardless of whether individual Jedi were nice people, the Jedi Order itself had proven that it was bent on controlling the senate if them not controlling it meant that they would have to leave Palpatine in control. It was the Jedi Order that was discredited, the subsequent purge was longer than just the few days following that takeover.
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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby DoglovingJim » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:07 pm

Marcuse wrote:Order 66 did miss a ton of Jedi. That's why Vader was engaged for many of that 20 year gap hunting them down and killing them. Fittingly for Palpatine, Order 66 was about breaking the political power of the Jedi and painting them as terrorists and rebels who were trying to take over the Republic. Mace Windu did make an attempt on the life of the Chancellor of the Republic because they had a disagreement over religious belief. Palpatine was only defending himself when he killed Windu.

Of course, the pre-planning Palpatine did to orchestrate the Clone Wars and implant the Order into the clones in advance proves he knew and expected that they would try to do that, and intended to use his position as Chancellor to paint the Jedi as traitors. But the Jedi fell into it hook, line and sinker. Regardless of whether individual Jedi were nice people, the Jedi Order itself had proven that it was bent on controlling the senate if them not controlling it meant that they would have to leave Palpatine in control. It was the Jedi Order that was discredited, the subsequent purge was longer than just the few days following that takeover.


I never thought of it like that. Are you saying that on the grand scheme of things "the dark side of the force" at face level by the rest of the galaxy are simply considered a religious sect and not evil, like what would happen if a Jew attempted to assassinate a Mormon who was a senator simply because he was a Mormon?

Wait but hold on, didn't the group attempt to simply arrest him and hold him to trial in accordance with the senate and then he went all sithy on them and killed them all?

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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby A Combustible Lemon » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:36 pm

He did that after Windu had already started attacking him. Anakin explicitly asked them to put him on trial, they refused.

Note: this would've been better situated /before/ he showed himself to be force sensitive, because now anakin is the only dumb one instead of everyone being understandably fooled. A hidden force user the jedi were not aware of, using a fucking lightsaber and being able to cross swords with three masters with no issue? I wonder why they thought he was
But the prequels are the prequels.
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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby Marcuse » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:47 pm

I never thought of it like that. Are you saying that on the grand scheme of things "the dark side of the force" at face level by the rest of the galaxy are simply considered a religious sect and not evil, like what would happen if a Jew attempted to assassinate a Mormon who was a senator simply because he was a Mormon?

Wait but hold on, didn't the group attempt to simply arrest him and hold him to trial in accordance with the senate and then he went all sithy on them and killed them all?


I think the important thing to note is that they were absolutely duped by someone evil into doing something incriminating. Windu does open by saying that Palpatine is under arrest, but they do so while igniting their lightsabers with the intent to use them if Palpatine resisted. He makes the "I am the senate" comment because he's telling them outright that if they attack him, it'll be seen as an attack on the Republic. He then forces them to do so while meeting them on equal footing in terms of force, they all have lightsabers and Force skills. From that point on there's no indication anyone isn't fighting to kill there, the fact that the three mook Jedi get murdered in short order doesn't mean they weren't going to kill Palpatine if they could.

The thing is, they attempt to arrest him when they think he's a normal dude, and when he reveals himself to be a Sith Lord properly (which they knew because Anakin told Windu) they try to kill him. When Windu gets the drop on Palpatine (which is almost certainly a feint on his part) Anakin says to him "no, he must stand trial" and Windu argues with him, saying he's too dangerous and controls the courts. Anakin tells him it's not the Jedi way and Windu ignores him and goes to strike, that's when Anakin cuts his arm off and Palpatine blasts him with Unlimehted Powahh.

Pally then plays it off as an "attempt on his life" and uses it as excuse to make himself Emperor of the Galactic Empire. Yes he absolutely orchestrated that situation, but he didn't orchestrate Windu knowingly ignoring his own rules and trying to kill Palpatine because he's a bad dude who needed to be taken out. He only did that because he was a Sith Lord.

As to how much the rest of the galaxy knew about the Sith? Barely at all. In Phantom Menace the Jedi themselves think the Order of the Sith Lords to have been extinct for hundreds of years. The average guy doesn't have a clue, and in the new trilogy Rey thinks even Luke Skywalker was a myth. In A New Hope the Force is so unknown that the moff Vader throttles calls it a "sad devotion to that ancient religion". It's not an important thing in most people's lives, even when they work closely with Force using Sith, let alone someone who's never seen a Force user before. The movies like to pretend that the Force is something everyone is aware of, but I prefer the attitude of the Mandalorians in the Legends canon; that billions die in Jedi/Sith sectarian wars and the galaxy would be better off without both of them. Do I think the average citizen of the Republic understood anything of the real reason Windu wanted to kill Palpatine? Not one bit.
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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby DoglovingJim » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:55 am

Marcuse wrote:
I never thought of it like that. Are you saying that on the grand scheme of things "the dark side of the force" at face level by the rest of the galaxy are simply considered a religious sect and not evil, like what would happen if a Jew attempted to assassinate a Mormon who was a senator simply because he was a Mormon?

Wait but hold on, didn't the group attempt to simply arrest him and hold him to trial in accordance with the senate and then he went all sithy on them and killed them all?


I think the important thing to note is that they were absolutely duped by someone evil into doing something incriminating. Windu does open by saying that Palpatine is under arrest, but they do so while igniting their lightsabers with the intent to use them if Palpatine resisted. He makes the "I am the senate" comment because he's telling them outright that if they attack him, it'll be seen as an attack on the Republic. He then forces them to do so while meeting them on equal footing in terms of force, they all have lightsabers and Force skills. From that point on there's no indication anyone isn't fighting to kill there, the fact that the three mook Jedi get murdered in short order doesn't mean they weren't going to kill Palpatine if they could.

The thing is, they attempt to arrest him when they think he's a normal dude, and when he reveals himself to be a Sith Lord properly (which they knew because Anakin told Windu) they try to kill him. When Windu gets the drop on Palpatine (which is almost certainly a feint on his part) Anakin says to him "no, he must stand trial" and Windu argues with him, saying he's too dangerous and controls the courts. Anakin tells him it's not the Jedi way and Windu ignores him and goes to strike, that's when Anakin cuts his arm off and Palpatine blasts him with Unlimehted Powahh.

Pally then plays it off as an "attempt on his life" and uses it as excuse to make himself Emperor of the Galactic Empire. Yes he absolutely orchestrated that situation, but he didn't orchestrate Windu knowingly ignoring his own rules and trying to kill Palpatine because he's a bad dude who needed to be taken out. He only did that because he was a Sith Lord.

As to how much the rest of the galaxy knew about the Sith? Barely at all. In Phantom Menace the Jedi themselves think the Order of the Sith Lords to have been extinct for hundreds of years. The average guy doesn't have a clue, and in the new trilogy Rey thinks even Luke Skywalker was a myth. In A New Hope the Force is so unknown that the moff Vader throttles calls it a "sad devotion to that ancient religion". It's not an important thing in most people's lives, even when they work closely with Force using Sith, let alone someone who's never seen a Force user before. The movies like to pretend that the Force is something everyone is aware of, but I prefer the attitude of the Mandalorians in the Legends canon; that billions die in Jedi/Sith sectarian wars and the galaxy would be better off without both of them. Do I think the average citizen of the Republic understood anything of the real reason Windu wanted to kill Palpatine? Not one bit.



Kind of nerded out reading that perspective, thank you Marcuse. Hahahaha, it makes the prequels a bit more interesting thinking about it like that so now I have to rewatch the whole series.
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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby Grimstone » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:22 am

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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby iMURDAu » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:21 pm

Stupid Episode I gave me a couple what if ideas yesterday.

What if Anakin, when pressed to make a decision, said nope? "I don't want to train as a Jedi, I want to race pods."

What if Nute Gunray had the guts to tell Not-Yet-the-Emperor that hey those Jedi got away and probably went down to the surface of Naboo because dey ain't on dis ship.

Finally what if the vote didn't go Palpatine's way? Swing votes in the senate go another way and he's not Chancellor of anything.
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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby Marcuse » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:28 pm

What if Anakin, when pressed to make a decision, said nope? "I don't want to train as a Jedi, I want to race pods."


One of those funny things with the Jedi. They take very young kids from families, keep them as part of their select order (remember that only 20 people were ever said to have left the Order, they're called the Lost Twenty), and they don't let them see their families ever. I do think that if they had found a child so strong in the Force who refused them, they would have trumped up a public safety defense for seizing Anakin and keeping him at the Temple for his own good. Or Qui Gonn could have leaned on the fact he essentially bought Anakin as a slave to get him to the Temple and just not let him leave ever. Maybe he'd end up in the agricultural corps, but he'd be under their control either way.

What if Nute Gunray had the guts to tell Not-Yet-the-Emperor that hey those Jedi got away and probably went down to the surface of Naboo because dey ain't on dis ship.


What do you mean? Darth Jar Jar already knew they were on Naboo.

Finally what if the vote didn't go Palpatine's way? Swing votes in the senate go another way and he's not Chancellor of anything.


He would still be the representative of Naboo, and would probably leverage his connections with the peaceable faction and the trade federation et al to win the next time around. Anakin did have the time to become an angsty teen from an annoying kid between ep 1 and 2 after all.

Edit: Also, the thing about the vote in the senate was that it wasn't a straight election where anyone could have joined. It was a vote of no-confidence in Chancellor Valorum, and if he lost (which of course he would) Palpatine positioned himself as the only alternative.
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Re: The Unified Star Wars Thread

Postby AboveGL » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:46 pm

This... is fucking glorious.

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