A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

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A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Postby Marcuse » Sat May 11, 2013 9:04 pm

This thread will contain many spoilers for the A Song of Ice and Fire book series.

Mods please delete or move this thread if it's inappropriate. I don't want to spoil unnecessarily so can everyone please still use the spoiler hide function even though it's a spoilery thread.

I recently re-read A Dance with Dragons and it set me to thinking what will happen in the next book given the events of the series. I would be interested to know people's thoughts on where the series will go from the end of DWD and which person they would choose as their "one to watch", the character they think will do great things.

Spoiler: show
I think everyone can expect that the Targaryens will take over Westeros again. I expect that Aegon will either fail or be killed in his premature attempt at the throne, as his claim is technically stronger than Daenerys'. I think the Lannisters will be deposed from power but will probably leave Westeros unprepared for the onslaught of the Others.

I do not for one second believe that Jon Snow is dead, someone will have to save him, but I wonder how he will be brought back. He could be resurrected by Melisandre, nursed back to health (somehow), or could rise as a wight similar to Coldhands.

My person to watch would be Littlefinger. As Lord Paramount of the Trident, Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Protector of the Vale with Sansa in tow he is effectively in position to control almost half of the kingdoms. Who and what he declares for will be a very important plot point in the Winds of Winter I predict.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation SPOLIERS AHEAD

Postby NisiOptimum » Sat May 11, 2013 9:29 pm

Spoiler: show
I suspect that this book will be the end of Littlefinger. He's in a weird position where he's sort of the Big Bad while at the same time we all know that he's not remotely the main threat to Westeros (Dany has dragons, the Others have an undead army and are probably going to be pretty immune to Littlefinger's manipulations). Looking at it logically I doubt he's going to be a major player in whatever final confrontation this thing is lurching towards- it'd be quite weird to have to keep cutting away from the apocalypse to deal with his schemes.

That said I think what will happen is Littlefinger is going to be the main villain of book six- we'll finally see what his ultimate scheme is and get to enjoy his brilliance a little more. And then the dragons will eat him or his attempt to take over the north will go wrong and Shaggydog will eat him (Taking the north has to be what he's planning with Sansa and Harry the Heir right?) leaving book seven free to deal with the others and the return of the queen.

Or he'll survive the whole series and retire as Dany's hand or something- seems like the sort of thing Martin (and in fairness history) might pull.

On John Snow- when I first read the book I was convinced he was going to stick around inside Ghost like Varamyr has been doing inside his wolf and we'd get POV chapters from that perspective but the more I think about it the more I worry that would get a bit dull after a while. So I think you might be right and he'll be resurrected. I just hope it's something suitably epic and not just Melisandre waving her hands over him.

What I'd really like from book six is a bit more focus in the narrative. I found the lack of drive in Dany and Tyrion's stories in the last book to be maddening and was anyone else furious when the whole Winterfell situation ended on a cliffhanger? I mean the first four books were flawless in my view but sometimes I look back on book 5 and think "What actually happened in that? I mean Jon getting shanked aside what events actually happened?" That said I loved book 4 which I've heard other people criticize for that exact reason so maybe it's just a matter of perspective. But now I'd really just like to see some movement, you know? The first three books at least were masterclasses in conveying huge events quickly and concisely without losing that epic feel and its a shame thats been lost.

Anyway enough cliched whining from me. Anyone got any ideas on where the Cersei/Jaime/Brienne thing might go? And what the hell is going on with the Boltons? That's the one that's really got me on tenterhooks
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation SPOLIERS AHEAD

Postby QuincyMorris » Sun May 12, 2013 2:56 am

If the first two and a half books are any indication, I imagine there will be several interesting problems presented before being dealt with vian a extreme anticlimax.

Spoiler: show
Eddard Stark isn't actually dead, guys. It was just an elaborate ruse to get away from his wife
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation SPOLIERS AHEAD

Postby phreestyle » Sun May 12, 2013 5:10 am

THanks Marcuse for posting this.

I'm going to make a few predictions, but they are going to be a little meta.

Spoiler: show
I don't think George Martin will finish this series. In fact, I don't think he'll write any more books at all. He's in his mid 60s and has attained fame and fortune. He seems to spend most of his time attending cons and book signings, and very little else.

He also seems to have fallen out of love with his own story. The first three books were superb, the fourth reasonably, and Dance with Dragons terrible, IMHO. As Nisi said, it was a rambling travelogue, myriad descriptions of food and bodily functions, and very little plot advancement.

The John Snow knifing was almost the last straw for me. It was the point at which I wanted to hurl that book across the room. It just seemed like a cheap stunt to me. The cliffhanger is a well that GRRM has visited a few times too often, and has effectively lost its power to shock or surprise.

So, with all that being said, these are my predictions. The TV series, which is extraordinarily successful, will keep on barreling along and will, within two seasons, have caught up to GRRM. Martin has signed over the complete rights to the books and the characters. The HBO producers already know the arc the story is meant to take, and will make changes to the story line to fit a known outcome. Also, Westros will, potentially, be the gift that keeps on giving. It is a rich world, and there is no reason there couldn't be myriad spinoff series. It has the capacity to be as big as, say, the Star Trek universe.

So, my prediction, for what it is worth, is this. Winds of Winter, if it ever exists, will not be written by Martin - maybe a ghost writer/s - and the series will conclude on TV.

Again in my opinion, this series the only important thing is to get the dragons and the whitewalkers together for an epic battle. We also need to see Aunt Dany and her nephew Jon Snow together, so they can ride the dragons, and maybe marry each other. Tyrone may, at some point, also ride a dragon


Sorry for such a long response.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation SPOILERS AHEAD

Postby Blackfish » Sun May 12, 2013 8:40 am

I agree with Nisi. I loved book 4, but book 5 felt like another set-up book that cut away just as we were getting to the payoff.
Spoiler: show
I'm talking about the big showdown at Meereen that a bunch of characters seemed to be moving towards. Not much else seemed to happen in the book, as characters either end the book basically where they began or, in the case of Quentyn, fail miserably after an entire book of set up. I still really love the series, but it's become a little too bloated for its own good - even two huge doorstoppers like AFfC and ADwD couldn't do all the characters justice. GRRM should have recognized this and excised or greatly trimmed down some subplots, such as Aegon and at least one of the group heading towards Dany.

Travelogues are fine, but firstly, Essos isn't as interesting as Westeros, and generally, the travelogue sections in previous books also had something else going for it - Brienne kicking butt, for example, or a glimpse on what the North is like while the War of the Five Kings raged, in the case of Bran. I love Tyrion but his grief whining is not that interesting after a while.

I did like Dany's sections, unlike other people. I found her story fascinating enough, even if I'd have liked the dragon action to come early in the arc and not as a cliffhanger.

And yeah. Jon Snow's death was shocking, but after a while you think back to Bran and Rickon, and Davos, and the Hound, and the lasting impact of the scene is sapped because GRRM has done this one too many times. It was easily my least favourite aspect of his writing style even when he wasn't overdoing it. I wasn't sure that Robb had bought it at the Red Wedding because of the Bran and Rickon thing in the previous book, so it was less of a sucker punch than it should have been. Now that I'm almost certain Jon isn't dead, that apparent death scene feels gimmicky.


Definitely the weakest of the books, though with all this set up out of the way Winds of Winter is probably going to be amazing.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation SPOILERS AHEAD

Postby Marcuse » Sun May 12, 2013 10:26 am

Wow, these are great answers. I think that...

Spoiler: show
The problem with Martin's writing style is that he has been increasing in subtlety throughout the books. His world has always been about a sense of what I will call "realism". "Realism" in quotations because obviously a world with dragons and white walkers can't have too much realism. But the world is built along set rules that predicate how things occur. Normally this results in terrible things happening to the best people.

My point is that the twist moments like Ned Stark being beheaded or Dany birthing dragons were impactful and dramatic, and the newer plot twists are less so. Compare Jon's surreal "death" scene or Quentyn's "death", these had more of the absurd about them and felt empty because they were. I think these are deliberate decisions by Martin to demonstrate the fatigue of the war for the Iron Throne and how people who are totally normal and try their best just die without a reason but cunning people who play the game survive.

I mention subtlety because I think that he has included small moments that will turn out to be really important. For example, why does Aegon turn toward Westeros instead of seeking Dany? Because Tyrion tells him to in a tiny scene over a game of Cyvasse. Why does Stannis have the strength to carry on the fight even after his coffers are empty? Because Cersei snubbed the Iron Bank and now they want to depose the Lannisters through nothing other than their own stupidity.

My reasoning for Littlefinger being important is that I expect he will be someone who is important in the war with the Others/Targaryens. He controls the Riverlands and the totally unscathed strength of the Eyrie and I think this will be an important force that every claimant to the Iron Throne will want to bring to bear. He will probably fail or be deposed as Nisi said, but I think the fallout from that will have huge implications for the players. Imagine if they swear to the Targaryens? Or Stannis?

Also, who else has grown to love Stannis over time? I really didn't like his character when he was introduced, but even though he has done some terrible things he still comes off as an honourable man and someone who dislikes the necessary evils of being a king in Westeros. It really interesting to see a character who is right but not liked, as many books show characters that are well liked and don't do things right, but suceed through pluck. It's interesting to see a character that is attempting to wrest power through righteousness alone.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation SPOILERS AHEAD

Postby CarrieVS » Sun May 19, 2013 11:02 pm

I don't think
Spoiler: show
Jon is dead. Sure, a couple of people have died in their own POV, but it always sort of moves out and feels more as if the reader is watching from just beside them. On the other hand, plenty of chapters have ended with that exact same fade-out, feeling what the character feels as the they loses consciousness, and not one of them was dead. The nearest to an exception is Quentyn, but he didn't, poor soul, actually die in that scene, and possibly Cat, but she's back.


My person to watch is Daario Naharis. I've just come to the conclusion that
Spoiler: show
he's a Targaryen, or more likely a Blackfyre. Reasoning (flimsy enough, but hey): dyed blue hair and blue eyes that, Dany often remarks, look almost purple. Remind you of anyone? Probably Blackfyre because: 1) if he's a Targaryen, who the hell is he? 2) there must be a Blackfyre somewhere; amongst those Quaithe said would come to Dany was a 'dark flame'.

I also have a theory that one of the heads of the dragon will turn up on the Quiet Isle. I did believe for a while that the Elder Brother was really Rhaegar - not quite killed by Robert's hammer - but on my latest rereading I don't think his physical description adds up. But if the bit about the one of the heads from the clanking dragon sign - turned red, mark you - washing up on the island isn't a portent, then I'm a biscuit.

With Dany, that makes three.


@Marcuse: I love Stannis! In large part because no-one else does, except for Davos and poor old Cressen. Until recently I'd have taken him out of all the kings (and queens) we've been offered, although now I think I'd be inclined to say Mance - not that he'd take the throne - or Myrcella.

As well as things I think are true, there's a few things I have horrible fears are true. I'm desperately hoping
Spoiler: show
* that Stannis doesn't die without finding out Davos is still alive.

* that Podrick Payne isn't dead. I don't much care if they hanged Hyle Hunt, but if they killed Pod I will be furious.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation SPOILERS AHEAD

Postby NisiOptimum » Mon May 20, 2013 1:24 am

Spoiler: show
I think you might be right although personally I'd be perfectly happy if we never saw the Quiet Island again. I just feel like if the narrative goes back there it'll mean the return of Sandor and I just love they way his story ends as it is. No firm answers or cliched character changes. Just the faintest hint of light and the hope that, maybe, somehow he found some peace. For some reason I found that strangely beautiful.

And everyone loves Stannis don't they? He's weirdly adorable.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation SPOILERS AHEAD

Postby Marcuse » Mon May 20, 2013 1:20 pm

So I'm just going to throw this one out there...

Spoiler: show
1. Who do you think Jon Snow's mother is?

2. Who do you think will end up as the three "heads" of the dragon?

Personally, I believe that Jon's parents are actually Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. I have read a lot of evidence from the books that indicates this and it fits with the history. As such, I believe he will be one of the heads of the dragon as well as Dany and also Aegon.

Many people seem to think that Aegon is fake, because of the prophecy that mentions "the sun's son and the mummer's dragon" and take this to mean that Aegon is a "mummer's dragon", a fake. But I think the prophecy can be read differently, as Quentyn Martell claimed dragon blood but got roasted and Aegon's mother was Dornish. I think there's sufficient reason to think that Aegon is the "Sun's son" and Martell is the "mummer's dragon".
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation SPOILERS AHEAD

Postby CarrieVS » Mon May 20, 2013 2:19 pm

I still think
Spoiler: show
Quentyn is the sun's son. But I think Aegon is the griffin. It doesn't count Gerris or Arch separately from Quentyn however you read it, so why should it count Connington separately from Aegon, and if neither is the griffin, who is? As for the mummer's dragon; not a clue.

(for anyone who inexplicably can't recall them all off the top of their head, it was "the pale mare, ... Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon.")

The mare is accepted to be the plague, the Kraken is surely Victarion, unless it's Euron (so probably will turn out not to be either; you know how these things go), the lion could be Tyrion but I'm inclined to suggest Gerion Lannister.

Dany is warned to trust none of them. Which she will find exceedingly hard if I'm right about Daario.


As for Jon's parentage, I also go with the popular theory
Spoiler: show
(Rhaegar and Lyanna, that is)
. It explains things that have no other explanation that I can see.

But I don't think
Spoiler: show
Sandor will return, even if we go back to the Quiet Isle. I'm not so sure that the gravedigger even is him, and I remember hearing that GRRM has confirmed he's dead. So I think it will never be confirmed either way. But as long as it's not, I'm going to continue to believe that Sandor Clegane is alive and has, perhaps, found some peace at last.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation SPOILERS AHEAD

Postby SryimHi » Thu May 23, 2013 5:29 am

Anyone get the feeling that...

Spoiler: show
the wall is coming down? With Jon being dead (for the time being) who will protect the wall? We already know that the wall had some sort of magic to it that keeps the white walkers out. GRRM has hinted at this before a couple times. Therefor, it would stand to reason that in order for the white walkers to invade Westeros the wall would have to come down. Correct? Jon Snow was the guy who was going save the wall, Martin effectively took him out of the picture. I do think we will see it beginning to be rebuilt though, at the conclusion of the story. After all, Bran is a green-seer, and has the ability to check in on past events by tapping into heart trees. He could see how Brandon the builder built the wall, and copy that.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation SPOILERS AHEAD

Postby SlayerGoddess » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:59 am

Spoiler: show
I think Arya's training in the Guild of the Faceless Men will make her an invisible killer when she returns to Westeros. She can already see through the eyes of a cat, and when she and Nymeria find each other again, she'll have her own army without having to deal with politics or marriage. I would hope that she'd lie about knowing Cersei by name and get sent after her, but that doesn't mesh with the prophesy. She'll never completely give up being Arya Stark, and she's learning how to lie convincingly and kill from the shadows.

I would love it if Sansa was the queen that casts Cersei down and takes what she holds dear. After all, even though she didn't know her role until afterwards, she did contribute towards Joffrey's death. Cersei is so obsessed with bringing Margaery down, it would be a beautiful thing if Sansa turned out to be more of a threat.
I do hope that Jaime is the valonquar, and that she sees him choose Brienne, or Sansa's safety, or another woman over her.

I don't see how Dany would get over her hatred of the Starks enough to give Jon any kind of chance. He believes Ned Stark is his father, whether or not it's true. I could see her really getting along with Mance Rayder and the wildlings. And of course, I think she has a new Dathraki horde now, minus its former Khal.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation SPOILERS AHEAD

Postby GlassNotFull » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:47 am

I think that...

Spoiler: show
Jaime will be the valonquar, because it is mentioned several times (esp. in recent books) that Cersei is born seconds older that Jaime. With Cersei going power mad and becoming more and more like the previous Mad King, Jaime may have to make a similar choice as he did when he became the Kingslayer.


Added spoiler tags for ya there - Marc
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation SPOILERS AHEAD

Postby CarrieVS » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:56 pm

I've started re-reading the series again and I'm trying to take special note of all the prophesies as I come to them. So far I've only come to one, and one that seems rather neglected in all the speculation:
Spoiler: show
Bran's vision as he dreams of falling before he wakes up wrote:...shadows all around them*. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armoured like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armour made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.
...
Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him

*them appears to refer to Ned, Sansa, and Arya. But it could possibly be Sansa and Arya only, or it could include some others, or Bran's family in general

It set me thinking.

Spoiler: show
Now the shadow with the face of a hound does sound like the Hound, and certainly he was intimately involved with the fates of Arya and Sansa at least.

The one armoured like the sun appears at first to be Jaime. Though on reflection, there could also be Tywin. Or maybe it just refers to Lannisters in general. At any rate on current evidence there's no better interpretation than something related to that tribe. And if it's Jaime, he also has his fate bound up with Cat's daughters.

By now I'm wondering how any of this relates to Ned, since that would pretty much have to have happened in book one - I guess it's possible that 'them' in the original text referred only to his sisters, or to his family in general and not necessarily each and every one. Perhaps I'm trying to read too much into it.

The giant in armour made of stone is the most interesting. The obvious assumption is Ser Robert Strong, AKA Frankengregor. Now Ned is bones long before he appears. Arya and Sansa are both well away from King's Landing, and I can't see that he would be likely to directly affect them, though it's certainly not impossible.

But is that the only explanation? Why stone armour; the armour made for Strong was too heavy for any normal man to wear, but it was iron. Might it refer to dragons, to be waked from stone and to grow huge? Certainly to result in much blood and death, and the way things are going perhaps to spell ruin for all who seek to control them (read: all) as well as their enemies? How about Stannis' attempts to animate Dragonstone?

(Which, of course, is clearly built on a volcano that is far from extinct, and clearly isn't the only area of Westeros with volcanic activity, and the Doom of Valyria is clearly a supervolcano. All of which spells one possible ending to me.)

But for now suppose it is Strong. This shadow looms over them both. Them appearing to mean the two preceding shadows, and that really set me thinking. Now it occurred to me after I'd already jumped to a different conclusion that it could simply mean that the third shadow loomed largest, indicating that Strong is to be more important, perhaps, than the Hound or Jaime Lannister, in the Starks' fates. But suppose it's looming over them in the same way that they loom over Bran's family?

That's curious because the Hound is supposed to be dead already, and apparently confirmed by the author even if not confirmed in-universe. And neither the living nor the undead Gregor killed him. One could say I suppose that his brother's shadow loomed large over all of his life, but I struggle to think of anything that is to happen in the books (barring that we have yet to learn about what Gregor did to his little brother at the time of Bran's dream), or anything about the Robert Strong incarnation. So perhaps I am reading too much into it after all.

If, on the other hand, I'm not, we appear to have the shadow of Frankengregor looming over Jaime Lannister. Which is interesting indeed.

Strong is Qyburn's creation, supposedly made specifically to defend Cersei. Now Qyburn isn't the most trust-inspiring soul in the world - even in the world of aSoIaF - so it could be he turns on her. But frankly with Jaime and Cersei at each other's throats, loyalty from Qyburn and Monster seems at least as likely to result in Jaime facing off with her pet.

Now, Strong's primary purpose at the moment is to be Cersei's champion in trial by combat. Could Jaime possibly be his opponent? I think he's busy elsewhere, there's no compelling reason for him to be chosen (could Margaery perhaps decide he's the best of her abysmal set of options given Loras' fate?). That would give him scope to seal Cersei's fate, if he is the Valonqar of prophesy. Yet he would need to win for that, which both seems highly unlikely given Jaime's current state, and throws doubt on that interpretation of Strong's shadow looming over Jaime, unless they both kill each other, of course.


I just now, as I was finishing writing the above, had another thought about the giant in stone armour. Armour of stone? Or flesh of stone? Given all that's under it is blood. Greyscale suggests Connington, or perhaps Tyrion? I thought he'd turn out to have got away with it, but it's more than possible that he'll come down with the disease. Tyrion, fond of joking that he is a giant. Cersei's little brother. Perhaps to be the doom of both twins?



[EDIT: and in all that excitement rambling I forgot to talk about the second part I quoted]
Spoiler: show
Is that bit about Jon just about him growing into the Lord Commander who kills the boy inside him and does thing like what he did to Gilly? Or is it referring to his apparent death? GRRM has reportedly said of him 'So you think he's dead do you?' which could be a double bluff but seems to suggest he isn't or not for good. Wight? Other? Survived, just barely - alone in a bed seems to suggest someone rescued him, if to be taken so literally?

The leading theory is that Melisandre will revive him via R'hollor, but all the cold and pale stuff doesn't suggest fire or the Red God to me. Rather it evokes thoughts of the great force of cold and darkness, referred to sometimes by a name reminiscent of Mel's Great Other, that also has the power to bring bodies back to animation - whether you could say people back to life is another matter.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation SPOILERS AHEAD

Postby julyjack73 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:33 am

Hodor's final villain. Calling it now.
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