A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Books Matter.

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Postby FaceTheCitizen » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:23 pm

...
  • 8

User avatar
FaceTheCitizen
TCS Moderator
TCS Moderator
 
Posts: 4553
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:12 pm
Show rep
Title: Thot Patrol

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Postby Malfeasinator » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:00 pm

FaceTheCitizen wrote:
Malfeasinator wrote:I can't keep track of all the whores


But you gotta do it to keep your pimping business alive.

A good pimp uses spreadsheets to spread them sheets.


I think if I were to be a pimp, it'd have to be somewhere that prostitution and recreational marijuana were both legal, so I could have a micro-pimpery slash B&B slash urban farm slash dispensary, apiary, and taco truck. (Just the one, though.) My place would sell a lot of farmer's market stuff like jams, jellies, and honeys (and not just the lady kind, heyoooo), along with marijuana edibles, and my house would be this cool place where you could come over, spend the day with a whore, get high and watch Adventure Time. Whores with free time could wear skimpy outfits, and sell weed and tacos to places around town while advertising for the home base, as it were.

But this has nothing to do with the books. I wonder what whorehouses are like in Westeros. Let's talk about Hot Pie's mom for a second. (Or not)
  • 3

User avatar
Malfeasinator
Time Waster
Time Waster
 
Posts: 1039
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:17 pm
Location: Florida
Show rep
Title: this guy

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Postby Marcuse » Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:06 pm

I've been thinking about the whole "pounce that was promised" thing. I'm confused about it.

People normally assume R+L=J and that Jon is the PtwP because he's the hidden son of Rhaegar. But that doesn't match up with Dany's experience in the House of the Undying. Mostly, people dismiss the whole HotU stuff as meaningless prophecy that cannot be verified and therefore can't be considered as remotely serious. They do in fact make several supposed prophecies which do come to pass, most notably the Red Wedding.

However, there's a few things that we know about magic/telepathy in aSoIaF that makes this a dubious reaction. We know from Bran that effective time travel is possible for people who have the ability to cast their consciousness back. The Shade of the Evening is billed as a substance that will promote this ability in people who may otherwise have no ability to do so, maybe it only stimulates people who have a gift already, we don't know. But either way we know it's possible for people to cast their minds back to other times and observe events as they occurred at the time, even if they may not be able to affect things.

This makes Dany's vision of Rhaegar and Elia hold a bit more veracity than it might otherwise do. The thing here is that Rhaegar clearly felt that his son Aegon was the PtwP, and then says that he needs another because the "dragon has three heads". Now this is clearly a reference to Aegon the Conquerer, who invaded Westeros with his two sister/wives. But this then places Jon's status as a targaryen in question, because if he was a child of Rhaegar, this wouldn't fit into the narrative Rhaegar wanted for his children: two females and one male to represent the dragonriders who took Westeros a while back.

On top of this, the Undying refer to Dany as the "child of three" and she doesn't understand what they mean by this. It might easily mean that she's the third child of Rhaegar, and that this is why she's special. As the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna she would have the genetic ability to hatch dragons, and would be the culmination of an effort to breed a new people capable of bringing dragons into the world.

The other interesting thing is that when the Undying assault her near the end of her time, one of them is specifically stated to go after one eye, biting. Who else drinks Shade of the Evening, has a wonky eye and is known to have warlocks in his employ? Yep, Euron Greyjoy. If he's been to the HotU and come away from it changed, that might explain his sudden apostatic delight in killing the religious, and his understanding of the supernatural.
  • 3

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6592
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Postby CarrieVS » Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:18 pm

Marcuse wrote:The Undying refer to Dany as the "child of three" and she doesn't understand what they mean by this. It might easily mean that she's the third child of Rhaegar, and that this is why she's special.


I think it would be very difficult for Dany to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's daughter. Rhaegar and his mother might have less practical objections, since it's a lot easier for someone to have a different father than is believed than a different mother, but I find it hard to believe even given the Targaryens' lack of objection to incest.

Not that I have any better suggestions, mind.
  • 3

A Combustible Lemon wrote:Death is an archaic concept for simpleminded commonfolk, not Victorian scientist whales.
User avatar
CarrieVS
TCS Redshirt
TCS Redshirt
 
Posts: 7103
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: By my wild self in the wet wild woods waving my wild tail
Show rep
Title: Drama Llama

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Postby Marcuse » Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:45 pm

CarrieVS wrote:
Marcuse wrote:The Undying refer to Dany as the "child of three" and she doesn't understand what they mean by this. It might easily mean that she's the third child of Rhaegar, and that this is why she's special.


I think it would be very difficult for Dany to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's daughter. Rhaegar and his mother might have less practical objections, since it's a lot easier for someone to have a different father than is believed than a different mother, but I find it hard to believe even given the Targaryens' lack of objection to incest.

Not that I have any better suggestions, mind.


I was a bit cut off in my last post because of small people.

The thing with all of Dany's recollection of her early life is that it is entirely dependent on Viserys' recollection of it. Except, of course, her memory of the "house with the red door". This theme recurs constantly in Dany chapters, and we're informed that this is supposed to be the place she lived in Braavos. Thing is, she remembers a lemon tree outside the window of her hideout, but there ain't lemon trees in Braavos. It's a city of stone and canals, and is basically barren and bereft of plant life.

The place where we know citrus does grow though, is Dorne. Septon Meribald carries a load of oranges he got from Dorne, and we're constantly reminded in the descriptions of Dornish cuisine that they use citrus often. The thing is, Dany is repeatedly reminded in dreams including the house with the red door to remember who she is. This implies that she is in fact unaware of key things in her past, and given that she really has no reliable record of her past, this is likely.

Where is the Tower of Joy? Where is Starfall? Dorne.
  • 4

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6592
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Postby Marcuse » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:12 pm

One thing I noted from the end of book 2 is that it contains a clue to the veracity of the claim that Quentyn Martell is, in fact, alive. When Quent faces a dragon (I think Rhaegal) he throws his hand up against the "furnace wind", a claim which is examined by Preston Jacobs because it doesn't discuss what comes from the dragon as "fire", and it's supported by some real world examination that suggests he might only have burned a bit, and actually succeeded.

The Tyrion chapter where he's observing the Battle of the Blackwater from the walls, the air that comes from the wildfire is described as "furnace wind". Tyrion wasn't burned, but it was significantly hot, and suggests that the "furnace wind" that comes from Rhaegal is probably not flame as we might expect.

Lothor Brune's knighthood is totally faked. After the Battle of the Blackwater, several people who performed exceptionally are singled out for honours. The others by turns; kill a great lord in single combat, protect a Lannister friendly lord when he's thrown from his horse, and a fourteen year old who kills two knights, wounds another and captures two more.

Here's Lothor Brune's supposed feat:

...the freerider Lothor Brune, who'd cut his way through half a hundred Fossoway men-at-arms to capture Ser Jon of the green and kill ser Bryan and Ser Edwyn of the red, thereby winning himself the name Lothor Apple-Eater


He's supposed to have killed fifty men himself? Shit, don't bother hiring sellswords, just hire this guy. Thing is, we know a couple of things about Brune, firstly he's never referred to by this supposed "Apple-eater" nickname by the narrative again, and he turns up in service to Littlefinger. I think it's probably likely that this is Littlefinger handing his crony a knighthood in the middle of the euphoria after the battle. He does the same when he's named Lord Paramount of the Trident.
  • 2

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6592
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Postby FaceTheCitizen » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:47 pm

...
  • 6

User avatar
FaceTheCitizen
TCS Moderator
TCS Moderator
 
Posts: 4553
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:12 pm
Show rep
Title: Thot Patrol

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Postby Anglerphobe » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:02 pm

Cut through doesn't necessarily mean "killed". He may have killed only a few of them but caused enough disarray to single out and claim his scalps in the confusion. That would be breaking or routing them in the military sense, rather than slaughtering them all. The former seems much more plausible too.
  • 2

"Tusser, they tell me, when thou wert alive,
Thou, teaching thrift, thyselfe couldst never thrive.
So, like the whetstone, many men are wont
To sharpen others, when themselves are blunt."

Anyone who has any kind of opinion fucking disgusts me.
User avatar
Anglerphobe
TCS Junkie
TCS Junkie
 
Posts: 2160
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:03 pm
Show rep
Title: round Earth shill

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Postby Marcuse » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:39 am

Anglerphobe wrote:Cut through doesn't necessarily mean "killed". He may have killed only a few of them but caused enough disarray to single out and claim his scalps in the confusion. That would be breaking or routing them in the military sense, rather than slaughtering them all. The former seems much more plausible too.


Of course, but the story still doesn't ever get mentioned again, and we know he ends up working for Littlefinger, so I'm pretty sure this story is meant to be fabricated. It's really only important because Brune is the one who protects Sansa from Marillion when she travels to the Vale and were it not for him Sansa and Littlefinger's ambitions to marry her to someone would be...ahem...less attractive a prospect given how their marriage contracts are judged.
  • 2

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6592
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Postby Marcuse » Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:30 am

The very beginning of book 3 is confusing and weird. Arya's first chapter where she's fleeing from Harranhal ends with her having a wolf dream about killing the Brave Companions, specifically mentioning the Dornishman, the Lysene, the Ibbenese and the Dothraki. This is specifically shown to be in the woods, while they're tracking her, Gendry and Hot Pie. The final fight is Nymeria against the Dothraki because he's the only one who stands his ground, and the wolf tears his arm off.

But those same Brave Companions are present and correct in the much later Jaime chapter where he loses his hand. Notably, the Dothraki is the one who removes Jaime's hand with his arakh. So is this a continuity fuckup? Was Arya just legit dreaming for once? We've been taught by the series to consider pretty much every single other wolf dream from every Stark as a legit thing that really happened, so it seems strange to dismiss this one as just a dream when it seems real. Does this mean that four more BCs have been impersonated by the FM? Whatever the case, something weird is certainly going on with the BC and it's not obvious what that might be.
  • 3

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6592
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Postby Marcuse » Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:54 pm

When Arya first meets the Brotherhood without Banners, they embark on a weird tangent that comes off like we're supposed to take it like everyday banter that gives us an insight into the BWB culture. They shoot a duck and ask Sharna at the Inn of the Kneeling Man to cook it with lemons. This is weird because nobody has anything like that, why do they ask for lemons and not oranges? Duck a l'orange is the common dish, so why the citrus swap?

Well here's the really pertinent quote from Sharna when asked:

Anguy shuffled his feet. "We were thinking we might eat it Sharna. With lemons. If you have some."

"Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don't you hop out back to the lemon tree and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too."


This minor detail is hidden within a lesser mystery to realise; the Inn of the Kneeling Man is the same place Jaime, Brienne and Cleos travel through on less obvious terms. Reading this, an observant reader might see that Brienne's suspicion about the fake innkeeper was justified, and not look into this further. But Sharna's comment about lemons puts the lie to Dany's repeating memory of a house with the red door with a lemon tree outside the window. As far as we know, Braavos has no lemon trees, and is on a similar latitude to the Vale, which is not remotely the appropriate climate for it.

If Dany never set foot in Westeros, as she remembers, why does she have a memory of this house and it's peculiarly Dornish flora? Also, why does she constantly remember fleeing from the Usurper's hired knives, when Robert complains in book 1 that he was dissuaded from sending assassins after Viserys and Dany by both Jon Arryn and Ned Stark? Dany's memory is completely messed up, and it means who she is is actually a mystery. No wonder Quaithe is trying to get her to remember truly again.
  • 3

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6592
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Postby cmsellers » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:58 pm

Marcuse wrote:As far as we know, Braavos has no lemon trees, and is on a similar latitude to the Vale, which is not remotely the appropriate climate for it.

Wales is on the same latitude as Labrador. We saw palm trees in Wales, which apparently can grow there thanks to the Gulf Stream. Of course Martin's world is a fantasy world, but if he hasn't stated there is no equivalent to the Gulf Stream in the Narrow Sea, it's not unreasonable to think there might be one.
  • 1

User avatar
cmsellers
Back-End Admin
Back-End Admin
 
Posts: 9316
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:20 pm
Location: Not *that* Bay Area
Show rep
Title: Broken Record Player

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Postby Marcuse » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:03 pm

cmsellers wrote:
Marcuse wrote:As far as we know, Braavos has no lemon trees, and is on a similar latitude to the Vale, which is not remotely the appropriate climate for it.

Wales is on the same latitude as Labrador. We saw palm trees in Wales, which apparently can grow there thanks to the Gulf Stream. Of course Martin's world is a fantasy world, but if he hasn't stated there is no equivalent to the Gulf Stream in the Narrow Sea, it's not unreasonable to think there might be one.


Well arguably Braavos would be the opposite, being on a point pretty close to the Shivering Sea. Also, Braavos is analogous to Venice, essentially being on water which would make it highly unlikely that there's Braavosi lemon trees about. It's not impossible, but it seems weird that Martin would make a clear point about lemon trees being from Dorne and have Dany's recollection of the lemon tree be so prominent and have her recollections be unreliable and have that not be at least some mystery regarding her identity and past.
  • 3

User avatar
Marcuse
TCS Sithlord
TCS Sithlord
 
Posts: 6592
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm
Show rep

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Postby CarrieVS » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:44 pm

It doesn't have to have lemon trees naturally growing there for someone to have planted one once, and it doesn't have to be their ideal climate for a single cultivated one to have survived. Besides that we didn't see Braavos for some time, so it's possible Martin didn't have the clearest picture of its climate when he wrote that. But it's certainly an interesting point to consider.

As for the hired knives, I took them to be mostly or entirely in Viserys' head.
  • 1

A Combustible Lemon wrote:Death is an archaic concept for simpleminded commonfolk, not Victorian scientist whales.
User avatar
CarrieVS
TCS Redshirt
TCS Redshirt
 
Posts: 7103
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:43 pm
Location: By my wild self in the wet wild woods waving my wild tail
Show rep
Title: Drama Llama

Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Book 6 Speculation: SPOILERS

Postby Malfeasinator » Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:13 pm

Marcuse wrote:I've been thinking about the whole "pounce that was promised" thing. I'm confused about it.

People normally assume R+L=J and that Jon is the PtwP because he's the hidden son of Rhaegar. But that doesn't match up with Dany's experience in the House of the Undying. Mostly, people dismiss the whole HotU stuff as meaningless prophecy that cannot be verified and therefore can't be considered as remotely serious. They do in fact make several supposed prophecies which do come to pass, most notably the Red Wedding.

However, there's a few things that we know about magic/telepathy in aSoIaF that makes this a dubious reaction. We know from Bran that effective time travel is possible for people who have the ability to cast their consciousness back. The Shade of the Evening is billed as a substance that will promote this ability in people who may otherwise have no ability to do so, maybe it only stimulates people who have a gift already, we don't know. But either way we know it's possible for people to cast their minds back to other times and observe events as they occurred at the time, even if they may not be able to affect things.

This makes Dany's vision of Rhaegar and Elia hold a bit more veracity than it might otherwise do. The thing here is that Rhaegar clearly felt that his son Aegon was the PtwP, and then says that he needs another because the "dragon has three heads". Now this is clearly a reference to Aegon the Conquerer, who invaded Westeros with his two sister/wives. But this then places Jon's status as a targaryen in question, because if he was a child of Rhaegar, this wouldn't fit into the narrative Rhaegar wanted for his children: two females and one male to represent the dragonriders who took Westeros a while back.

On top of this, the Undying refer to Dany as the "child of three" and she doesn't understand what they mean by this. It might easily mean that she's the third child of Rhaegar, and that this is why she's special. As the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna she would have the genetic ability to hatch dragons, and would be the culmination of an effort to breed a new people capable of bringing dragons into the world.

The other interesting thing is that when the Undying assault her near the end of her time, one of them is specifically stated to go after one eye, biting. Who else drinks Shade of the Evening, has a wonky eye and is known to have warlocks in his employ? Yep, Euron Greyjoy. If he's been to the HotU and come away from it changed, that might explain his sudden apostatic delight in killing the religious, and his understanding of the supernatural.


Just look in the Appendix from the first book and you'll see who Dany's parents were. Aerys and Rhaella. Their brother was Rhaegar. That's why she's a child of three. He was much older but these things happen. Prince Aegon, who is with Jon Connington, is Dany's nephew, even though they're about the same age. That happens sometimes.

This might help:

Image

Quentyn Martell surviving would be useless as a story mechanism, because he has failed his mission either way and has no more to do. But he clearly burned very badly. There wasn't just a hot breeze.

This is from the book:

"When he raised his whip, he saw that his lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.
Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream."

And he very clearly died.

"The Dornish Prince was three days dying.
He took his last shuddering breath in the bleak black dawn..."

A chapter from Barristan's point of view goes into details about his death. Dude died on Dany's bed, everything reeked of blood and smoke, he had no lips because they were melted off. It also says this:

"After the girl was gone, the old knight peeled back the coverlet for one last look at Quentyn Martell's face, or what remained of it. So much of the prince's flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath. His eyes were pools of pus..."

There's no coming back from that. He's gone.

I know there's a lot of details and stuff to keep track of, but there's no point looking for secret clues for what's going to happen next. Just wait it out like everyone else and enjoy the surprise.
  • 1

User avatar
Malfeasinator
Time Waster
Time Waster
 
Posts: 1039
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:17 pm
Location: Florida
Show rep
Title: this guy

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron